With the caveat of having no clue about the situation, I don't really see much of a rationale above for the current "Republic of Ireland", which seems to fly in the face of Wikivoyage's normal "most common name" convention and gets some objections on political grounds too. Would it be thoroughly unacceptable to move it to plain old "Ireland", which is already used on most other language versions and a huge slew of incoming links, and plop in a China/Israel style disclaimerbox that this article is about the bit where they use euros, and you need to mosy over to Northern Ireland for the pound-using bit? (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:17, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

I partly support that proposal as it would enable us to dispose of the present clunky and unWikivoyage-like title. However, there is the disadvantage of losing a disambiguation that offers a convenient link to both the south and north for people who are visiting the island of Ireland (irrespective of the political divisions). It might also be worth noting that we have maintained disambiguation pages for other articles with similar status: Korea Borneo and Timor. The main problem here is that Ireland is the name of both the country and the island, whereas the other places mentioned either have totally unrelated names or have the prefix of west and east... mmm (WT-en) WindHorse 08:41, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

The difference is that there are no countries called "Korea", "Borneo" or "Timor". Even Republic of Macedonia has been moved to Macedonia (Republic). (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:13, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

I also support this proposal, in conjunction with a removal of the disambiguation discussed above. A link to Northern Ireland in the regions section of Ireland would take care of travelers looking for that information; its description can and should mention that it is in a different country. My personal experience is that travelers are visiting the Emerald Isle, not "The Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom Home Country of Northern Ireland." And on Wikivoyage the politics do not come first. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:23, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

I agree that practical considerations should overrule political ones and, as stated, many travelers who visit the Emerald Island are only interested in information about the whole geographical region, and are not concerned whether the part they are visiting is ruled from Dublin or London. However, by using the title Ireland to represent both political entities, I think we will inflame both republican and unionist sentiments and incite a constant edit war. Therefore, I wonder whether it would be better to preserve Ireland as the title for the island and have the following two disambiguations: 'Ireland (republic)' and 'Northern Ireland'. In this way, the title is Wikified, political sensitivities are respected and the Emerald Island retains a title that is convenient for travelers who are interested in scenery, not politics. In some ways, using Ireland as a title to represent the whole island without the political disambiguations is perhaps similar to using the title America to cover the US, Canada and Latin America and just mentioning in the article that the regions use different currencies. Anyway, just throwing out some ideas. (WT-en) WindHorse 05:22, 7 July 2007 (EDT)

plus plus plus...another point for keeping the republic and north as separate articles is the visa regulations. For EU member states obviously no visas are required, and I'm sure that both counties have the same policy towards the US and Canada, but for other nationals it could be different. I know that for Bhutanese, a visa for France allows travel to Germany, but not to the UK. That requires a different application. It is many moons since I traveled on the Swansea to Cork ferry, and I have totally forgotten the regulations, but there is quite a possibility that there is a difference, as there is between France and the UK. Anyway, just an after thought... (WT-en) WindHorse 09:20, 7 July 2007 (EDT)

Ireland and the UK are part of a common travel area, and there are no border controls. It's sort of like our own mini-Schengen ;-) You will be lucky if you notice crossing the border never mind being stopped. Most guidebooks that I know of deal with the entire island, and this does seem a sensible approach, I don't see why people planning a visit would restict themselves to one or other jurisdiction. -- (WT-en) Blorg 17:09, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

Hi Blorg, I full agree with your point. However, the reason for maintaining separate articles for the two jurisdictions was not made in respect to travelers restricting themselves to one political region, but to accommodate different information. For example, the south is part of the Euro zone, whereas the north uses GB Pounds. Separating the two areas avoids having to state general prices in two currencies. There are also different ticketing rules for public transportation in both regions. Again, this can only be covered adequately if the they are given separate articles. As I said, I fully agree with your comments when looked at from the point of border controls, but in order to offer information on the two regions in a clear and non-confusing way in was thought best to keep the two areas separate. Anyway, thanks for your input on the matter. Take it easy. (WT-en) WindHorse 21:28, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

Hi, just started on Ireland and Northern Ireland, and was wondering if 'Ireland', the name of the country in Europe referring to the 26 counties, could be changed to the 'Republic of Ireland', as 'Ireland' generally means the 32 counties and things could get a little confusing. Also, the first edit to the Ireland page wasn't me, the second one was me (when I was anonymous), in case there was some ambiguity. -- (WT-en) Professorbiscuit

I'm a little dubious about this. First, I'm a scaredy-cat about hotspot political issues like Ireland. But second, I'd worry that we'd then have two places to put information about the Republic: on Ireland, and on Republic of Ireland.

That all said, I think if we make Ireland a disambiguation page (rather than a page about the island), it'll probably be OK. Any other thoughts? --(WT-en) Evan 20:52, 1 Apr 2004 (EST)

Disambiguation page sounds good -- (WT-en) Huttite 03:31, 2 Apr 2004 (EST)

Works for me -- (WT-en) Professorbiscuit

I just discovered this conversation. It was me who messed up the page in the first place and yes it was an honest attempt to start it and yes I went back in later, nervously, to continue. It's much easier now the correct template is there. I'll add more if I can. I've done some on the Cork page too -- ( anonfromCork)

anon: Don't worry about messing things up -- you did a great job getting this article active. Thanks for your work and help. --(WT-en) Evan 22:56, 3 Apr 2004 (EST)

There is no such country as "Republic of Ireland", though it is sometimes wrongly described as such. The name of the country which is the subject of this article is "Ireland" and it happens to be a republic. It is not to be confused with "Northern Ireland", which is a part of the United Kingdom. The title of this page should be "Ireland", and the disambiguation page should distinguish between "Ireland" and "Northern Ireland". --Lorcan 2 Aug 2005

You are strictly speaking correct, but the Republic of Ireland is the country's legal description as stated in the Republic of Ireland Act.

That said, the "common usage" criterion tells me this page really should be at plain old Ireland, with a disclaimerbox pointing to Northern Ireland. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:56, 2 Aug 2005 (EDT)

I believe that Lorcan has stated it correctly. The Irish Constitution specifically states that, in English, the name of the country is "Ireland". The Republic of Ireland Act refers only to the "description", not to the "name". In addition, the Constitution takes precedence over all laws so that if the Oireachtas had wanted to change the name of the country then a referendum to change the Constitution would have been required. As an Irish citizen may I state (with all due nervousness) that I often come across fellow citizens who object to "Republic of Ireland", some who don't mind it and no-one who prefers it. --BrianR 15 Sep 2005

I want to revisit this discussion. I feel the disambiguation page is redundant and this article should be moved to Ireland and move the disambiguation page to Ireland (Disambiguation). Everyone in the UK understands the relationship between Ireland and Northern Ireland, as does everyone in Ireland. I'm sure the majority of Americans do too because I remember, even as a young child, watching video of the Catholics and Protestants clashing and became aware of the turmoil and history of Ireland. So I think a disambiguation of "Ireland" is just foolish as most English speakers will likely know Northern Ireland is independent of Ireland. Thoughts? -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 23:48, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

I'm not overly familiar with the region on a personal level, so can not add voice to objections to one or the other based on local sentiments. However, I think that most people are aware that Ireland refers to the republic and Northern Ireland refers to the province. So, I think it is acceptable to drop the disambiguation in favor of having two unconnected articles simply called 'Ireland' and 'Northern Ireland'. (WT-en) WindHorse 03:32, 8 June 2007 (EDT)...though on reflection, leaving the disambiguation is useful for travelers who wish to visit the island of Ireland. In addition, we have a disambiguation the two Koreas, where the lines of demarcation are far more clearly defined. Maybe the argument for maintaining the status quo is, perhaps, slightly in more compelling... (WT-en) WindHorse 03:46, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

There is a bit of a discussion of this issue from a different angle at Talk:Ireland. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 03:57, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

As a new wikivoyage user (and a citizen of Ireland), I have an interest in this conversation. Firstly, I also edit on wikipedia, and conversations on this topic can get *VERY* heated at times over there, so it's nice to see it kept on an even keel here!

I would say that there are merits on both sides of the arguement regarding having a disambiguation page or not. Personally, I expected there to be one when I came here, and I automatically searched for Republic of Ireland rather than Ireland (perhaps that's my wikipedia training!).

Speaking as someone living here, I personally see the two jurisdictions as being distinct and different, and from that point of view, perhaps they should have two articles. However, this site is primarily for travellers and tourists, and I don't know whether they would view it as one country or two, particularly since the whole peace process, and decommissioning of arms by the IRA, Etc. There is a border between the two jurisdictions, but it is largely un-manned, given that there is a common travel policy between Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (to give it it's full title).

On balance if I had to express a preference for one article which covers Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland or two separate articles, I think I'd plumb for one article, but make sure that the two jursidictions are treated with respect, or Northern Ireland could get 'lost'.

I don't know if this helps or hinders the conversation, but it's my 2c worth anyway! --(WT-en) The.Q 08:17, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

comment copied from Talk:Ireland to consolidate this discussion

From a traveler's perspective, there are no border controls, hence Ireland is one tourist destination. The two Congos and Koreas have border controls (to say the least) as well as serious differences in their cultures and social structures, whereas the "Irelands" simply do not. When I visited Ireland, I certainly didn't think of it in terms of the North and the South, I thought of it in terms of "Belfast area," "Dublin Area," "Dingle," etc. This reality is well represented by the fact that we actually have Northern Ireland listed as a region of Ulster. I think this is a good example of how Wikivoyage's policy of privileging sovereignty does not necessarily help the traveler. Regardless of what "country" you are in here, you are really just traveling around Ireland, the island. Why privilege politics over travel?

This is also a frustrating practice "for the editor" since I keep accidentally setting up links to places like Talk:Ireland#Regions. In fact, I would have forgotten about this whole thing if I hadn't just accidentally wound up here again. *note: just did this again today :(

I'd like to add that this change would be easy to implement now, as I am implementing the new top-level regions discussed below. A new scheme would actually elevate Northern Ireland's position in the Ireland hierarchy, as it is currently buried in Ulster. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:19, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

Here, here! Let's do it.. and just to avoid politics we'll add the Template:Disclaimerbox, which is also used on Golan Heights and is semi-considered an Israeli territory, though the breadcrumb suggests it's a large area in the Middle East. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 00:28, 7 July 2007 (EDT)

I've been working on adding information to the Ireland pages based on my recent trip which included 2 months in Ireland, and I found that using the four Provinces as a seperate page was kind of annoying, and not that useful from a travel guide point of view.

For one thing, aside from knowing that County Galway, where I spent most of my time, is in Connacht, and that Northern Ireland is most of Ulster, I have no real idea as to where the boundaries of the provinces are, so just seeing the four of them on the main page wasn't very helpful. And I've already been there.

The other problem I was having with the previous setup was that there was very little to say about each province except what counties and cities were within them, without repeating information that would be more useful on the pages for the counties and cities.

So what I did was move all the names of the counties into the regions list, using the provinces only as secondary headings. Of course the disadvantage is that this makes a 30 lines long list, which is a bit of a pain too.

Anyway, what I'm wondering is what people think of this, which way is better, and is there a better way to show users what parts of the country fall into which provinces without making such a long list? - (WT-en) Neil C 23:54, 10 Aug 2004 (EDT)

I think the main downside to what you did is that we try to keep divisions of a country or region down to about 7+/-2 parts. Take a look at Project:geographical hierarchy#dividing geographical units for some more details. I think having the 4 province pages is the better bet, even if they are really short. --(WT-en) Evan 02:42, 11 Aug 2004 (EDT)

I agree in theory. But I was also in Ireland this summer, and the new long format would have been much more useful.

-(WT-en) Elgaard

I looked through the geographical hierarchy and I can see where you're coming from. The problem in Ireland, more significant than just the short pages in between national and county levels, is that the regional names are rarely, if ever, used, and the names mean nothing to the uninitiated. This makes the Irish situation somewhat different from, for example, the US, where if you say "Mid-west," even if you don't know the country, there is still some geographic meaning.

I was actually hoping someone would have a third option, that would make the provincial breakdown more useful to the traveller without having to make a long list of counties. -(WT-en) Neil C 15:47, 11 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Can you think of another way to group the counties into a smaller number of regions? Is there a more traditional or well-known high-level grouping than the provinces? If not, I think we should really leave the provinces in there. --(WT-en) Evan 16:50, 11 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Irish hierarchy revisited

Well, I see this topic has fermented for a long time. I am sure there must be a better way to do the top-level regions for Ireland—currently we have a region (Ulster) within Ireland that overlaps the entirety of Northern Ireland, which is in a different country. Worst of all, it leads to a disambiguation page! I'll look into this some more. --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald ^Talk 19:13, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

Here's a map of a new regions proposal, based on the regions that the country itself promotes. I will allow some time for others to comment and, if no objections, I'll plunge forward with a new regional hierarchy for Ireland. --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald ^Talk 16:13, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

<own horn toot>Oh wow! I forgot how nice my map was!</own horn toot> Is it safe to say that I should plunge forward with this, as no one has objected? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 03:52, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

Peter, this acutally looks good, IMHO! The map looks very good too :). Are these the Fáilte Ireland (official tourist agency) regions? That would probably be the best way to sort out the counties on a tourist website! I'd say, plunge forward --(WT-en) The.Q 08:21, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

As I look at your map again, I think you may need to show the location of some of the main towns also, to give the traveller a good idea as to what's where! --(WT-en) The.Q 08:28, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

Well, I finally got an endorsement and no one has opposed the new scheme over the past month, so I'm going to change over from the existing regional hierarchy to this one. I will make sure to transfer all existing content (to the extent that it is possible) and to avoid orphaning any cities. And yes these are the official Fáilte Ireland regions, with the one exception that I have not created a separate Dublin region. I think the official Dublin region fits just fine as a subregion of East Coast & Midlands. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:06, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

Discussion copied from User talk:(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald

Peter, off the top of my head, I suppose you'd need to include at least one town/city for each region. Without having put too much thought into it, I'd suggest the following (by region):

Northwest Ireland, Sligo and Letterkenny
West Ireland, Galway and Athlone
Shannon Region, Limerick
Southwest Ireland, Cork
Southeast Ireland, Waterford
East Coast & Midlands, Dublin obviously, and also Kilkenny

These are a few thoughts, if I thought harder about it (which I will do!) I'd possibly change a few of them. I'll come back to this. --(WT-en) The.Q 08:20, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

Well, I said I'd think about it, and I did! Each of the traditional counties in Ireland has one (or sometimes two) town(s) which is known as the county seat. This is usually the largest town in the county, frequently the administrative centre of the county also, although this is not absolute. For each of the regions, then, I have written below the county towns (and their respective counties), in what I would consider order of importance. I would then leave it up to your judgement as to which of them you could include on your map, taking into account how much space you have, Etc.

• East Coast & Midlands (incl Dublin): eastcoastmidlands.ie and visitdublin.ie

1. Dublin, County Dublin
2. Naas, County Kildare
3. Athlone, County Westmeath (actually Mullingar is the county town for Westmeath, but Athlone is more tourist-centric)
4. Wicklow, County Wicklow (Bray is actually bigger, but it is practically a suburb of Dublin)
5. Longford, County Longford
6. Navan, County Meath
7. Tullamore, North County Offaly
8. Portlaoise, County Laois
9. Dundalk, County Louth

• South East Ireland: southeastireland.com

1. Waterford, County Waterford
2. Kilkenny, County Kilkenny
3. Clonmel, County Tipperary (Co. Tipp. is historically divided into two, and the South Riding is in South East Ireland)
4. Wexford, County Wexford
5. Carlow, County Carlow

• Ireland North West & Lakelands: irelandnorthwest.ie

1. Sligo, County Sligo
2. Letterkenny, County Donegal (actually, the much smaller Lifford is the county town)
3. Carrick-on-Shannon, County Leitrim
4. Cavan, County Cavan
5. Monaghan, County Monaghan

• Ireland West: irelandwest.ie

1. Galway, County Galway
2. Castlebar, County Mayo
3. Roscommon, County Roscommon

• Shannon Region: shannonregiontourism.ie

1. Limerick, County Limerick
2. Ennis, County Clare
3. Nenagh, County Tipperary (Co. Tipp. is historically divided into two, and the North Riding is in the Shannon Region)
4. Birr, South County Offaly

• South West: corkkerry.ie

1. Cork, County Cork
2. Tralee, County Kerry (although Killarney may be more appropriate for tourists)

Does this help, or make it more difficult??!! --(WT-en) The.Q 10:24, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

That most certainly does help, and with more things than just the maps. You can see from the two maps I have added to the Ireland page what I have incorporated. I have now also implemented the new regional hierarchy throughout Wikivoyage. There are now region pages for each of the Fáilte Ireland regions, which could use some attention from a knowledgeable editor such as yourself (I have good travel knowledge only about the Dingle Peninsula, as far as Ireland is concerned). You might notice that I also avoided splitting counties across the top-level regions, as Fáilte Ireland does, because to do so would make things less clear (IMO) for contributors in a wiki-environment. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:18, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

Hi, I just tried to tidy up the Destinations/ Cities putting 9 in each list as is standard on wikivoyage. I tried to base the cities on the great list from (WT-en) The.Q above. I don't mind if they are changed

• Dublin *Cork *Galway *Limerick

I would say these should definitely be on the list, as for the rest, five from these trying to distribute them geographically

• Kilkenny *Waterford *Wexford *Letterkenny *Sligo *Athlone *Castlebar- (article for this is not particularly good) *Tralee (no article at the moment) *Ennis *Carrick-On-Shannon

The Other Destinations is a little more tricky

• Aran Islands *Burren *Ring of Kerry, Killarney, Skellig Michael *Brú Na Bóinne (perhaps include Kells Tara and Trim?) *Coonemara

I think those stand out, then four from the rest;

• West Cork *Kinsale *Cashel or Clonmacnoise (neither has an article at present) *Knock (attracts huge visitor numbers) *Glendalough * Westport

From the existing list I removed Dundalk (I would say not a highlight of Ireland) *Dromineer(perhaps a little too specialist, I put a mention in on the sailing section of the artcle.) historical regions*Carlow (I think can go as well, someone well meaning has elevated the place of Carlow, and though it is a nice town agian it is not a highlight of Ireland)

Anyway feel free to change these around they are just some ideas. Hope it has been useful (WT-en) Meltwaterfalls 08:08, 29 August 2007 (EDT)

I and my friends have many family members (and more friends) across Ireland and find it insulting that the four Provinces of the island of Ireland are not stated. For reference they are Ulster, Munster, Leinster & Connaught. It should also be stated that although Northern Ireland is sometimes (wrongly) referred to as Ulster this is incorrect as the true Province of Ulster consists of 9 counties. The map (whichever is used) should clearly show the four individual provinces and maybe even point out that the most northerly point of the island of Ireland is actually part of Republic of Ireland —The preceding comment was added by 89.243.40.56 (talk • contribs)

Insulting, really? If this is very important, you could add something to the understand section, but Wikivoyage regions are meant to divide larger regions up in a way that makes most sense for the visitor. If we only used four regions, there would be too much content in each of them, thus we went for six, based on the Fáilte Ireland regions. For more information on Irish administrative divisions, you can always follow the link to Wikipedia in the sidebar ;) --Peter ^Talk 21:07, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Nobody in Ireland would recognise the regions as shown in the map. They would be regarded as "makeyuppy" regions by Fáilte Ireland. They are there for marketing purposes. Any Irish person, and even a lot people coming to Ireland, would be more familiar with the 4 provinces and the counties of Ireland, not the regions listed. Ask someone where they are going and they are most likely to name the county, possibly the province, but not the region. A map of the counties and provinces should be primarily shown on this page. Maybe the regional map could be retained, but it is not of importance to most people. They'll find them with Fáilte Ireland, but few other places. Coming here, they'll want to see Ireland's provinces, counties, towns and cities.

As to cities, what constitutes a city in Ireland is different to what it would in some places. There are lots of what would be regarded as large towns in Ireland, which others outside of Ireland might refer to as a city. Even Kilkenny, officially regarded as a city for historical reasons, is really just a town, and even many Irish people would not call it a city. There are many towns in Ireland much bigger than it, that would not be regarded or referred to as cities. It is a matter of pride in Kilkenny to have it called a city. Some of the places listed, like Letterkenny, Killarney and Sligo are not cities. I changed the heading to Cities and towns to reflect this.--IrishFlukey (talk) 11:16, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

"There are many Irish people who will hold visitors in higher esteem if they make the effort to learn and speak some basic Irish phrases, especially in tourist centres and pubs."

as an Irishman in all the times i have seen any foreign visitor attempt to speak Irish it has generally benn met with eith curious amusement or downright disdain (esp. Americans) the main reason for this is the low level of spoken irish in ireland so most irish people will be unable to understand even simple phrases if they are mispronunced (cead mile failte is the most frequently mangled expression), unless i can see some evidence that tourists are encouraged ot speak irish in the gaeltacht I would be in favour of deleting this passage as I and every other Irish person I know would consider any attempt by a tourist to speak irish generally a faux pas and would consider the above statement bad advice and liable in some extreem circumstances to cause trouble . any thoughts ,note I wont change this for some timee to give people time to respond.86.43.91.11 19:59, 17 September 2006 (EDT)

Don't agree with above. You are giving a personal opinion and taking an extreme view regarding the Irish language. My experience is that visitors who attempt Irish are received with good manners and treated with respect. I think it is the same as somebody trying out a few French phrases in Paris. User:(WT-en) Ciaranc

As Ciaran says this a personal opinion.The user is being ignorant and disingenuous.Couldn't see anyone taking offense at this.Unfortuantely some Irish people dislike Irish due to it being obligatory in education here.

Can we not change the comment on the main page that says no need to speak Irish.Instead you could put 'Using Irish is not necessary but if used will be met with surprise. User:(WT-en) Diarmuidh

"However, some native Irish speakers may take offense if you call Irish "Gaelic" as this is the incorrect term and refers to Scottish Gaelic."

Gaelic is a perfectly correct term for the Irish language, particularly for the dialect which is spoken in the Donegal Gaeltacht. However, 'gaelic' is, unfortunately, also a very common abbreviation for the sport Gaelic Football, which can cause confusion for the amazing number of Irish people who don't know that 'Gaelic' is a correct term for the language. Anyway, Wikipedia [] has more.

--87.192.217.123 16:21, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

Here are some external links for Ireland that some WikiTravel users added and may be used for reference.

• Fáilte Ireland (http://www.ireland.ie/) -- Ireland's official online Tourist Office
• Citizens Information (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/) -- Information on Public Services from the Irish government
• Domains of Ireland (http://www.Domainsofireland.com/) -- Directory of websites about ireland
• Irish Property World (http://www.irishpropertyworld.com/) -- Information on travelling to and living in Ireland
• Planet of the Blogs (http://www.planetoftheblogs.com/) -- Frequently updated summaries related to events in Ireland

End discussion copied from Talk:Republic of Ireland --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:03, 12 July 2007 (EDT)