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Mandatory booking flag for listings
[edit source]It seems that at least in Europe, the overtourism is dealt with e.g. by requiring booking entrance time upfront, often sold out for days prior, and no on-premises tickets even. I got bitten by this a few times in the past weeks already, including listings that seem quite mundane. e.g. today after a 40m drive, it was a bit surreal to be left outside with 20 other people before middle-of-nowhere ruins, with next entry 5h later :) ... It was definitely my fault for not checking upfront, but...
I think some kind of icon "booking required" would help, and could be also used for Trip Planner, for example. One can easily overlook this requirement in a wall of text. Any other ideas/suggestions? I see now e.g. google maps has this "better to book upfront" recommendation in place... -- andree 18:29, 13 August 2026 (UTC)
- I don't know whether a symbol is practical, but it definitely should be emphasized in any listing in which it's relevant! I'm sorry that happened to you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 13 August 2026 (UTC)
- I did a Googlesearch of "Booking needed icon" and looking at the various icons that came up, it seemed to me that the most appropriate woudl be a stylised clip-board. As a guide, Wikipedia flag icons are 23 x 15 pixels with a one pixel border. Martinvl (talk) 21:40, 13 August 2026 (UTC)
- Some major tourist attractions in China require advance booking as well (although sometimes if you are a foreigner you can beg and cry and they'll let you in). E.g. Tiananmen Square (they did not let me in). Brycehughes (talk) 10:26, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I support such an icon to be added in listings. Plenty of places I've come across in Paris and Barcelona that required bookings during peak holiday season that I think a visual identifier would be immensely useful for such attractions. //shb (t | c | m) 11:22, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I doubt an icon will work well since readers may not be aware of its meaning, so I'd prefer bolded text. Perhaps make a template for it?
- Are there more complicated situations? I remember reading of a case where a Londoner could not get tickets to a popular West End show because seats were all sold months in advance to tour companies, but an American had no trouble booking tickets via a US travel agency. That was in fiction; is it realistic? Would something similar apply for Broadway shows in New York, Vienna opera, Nashville, ...? Pashley (talk) 12:36, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- This is absolutely the case in China. Chinese citizens must make advance bookings (typically via a WeChat mini-program) for many attractions while foreigners are given a lot of leeway, and can often just show up and present their passports. This brings up a case that we might need handle: locals are required to book in advance but foreigners are not. Brycehughes (talk) 12:58, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- It isn't too hard to write "Reservation required for locals/foreigners". Wouldn't that be enough for the simple cases? Add a "if tickets are sold out, you may still get them from tour companies" if relevant. While this is probably a new phenomenon, long queues have been a fact of life at many places, hopefully noted in the listings, and some restaurants require booking weeks in advance, also hopefully noted. We haven't used bold text for these, but I don't oppose bold-text warnings, as long as only the key words are in bold. –LPfi (talk) 14:15, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, still stinging off my Tiananmen Square experience I'd love a simple checkbox in the form indicating advanced registration is required (converting into whatever text) but given the local/foreigner dichotomy plus other potential edge cases it does seem like just indicating this in the content text is the most helpful/robust path. Brycehughes (talk) 14:41, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I have prepared an icon which shows a clipvboard:
. This still needs a wrapper artound it, but before I go any further, what do people think? It should display the text "Booking Requreid" if the user hovers over it, but I still have to sort that out. Martinvl (talk) 15:54, 15 August 2026 (UTC) - Before the icon we need to decide whether this makes sense, which I think it does not, currently. Brycehughes (talk) 15:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I think I'd prefer a clock symbol. There are many clock icons on Commons, such as
or 
. - However, overall, I think that text would be more useful than an icon. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:58, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I think text is better. There isn't a standard icon that everybody recognises, and in many cases extra text is useful. For instance in the original example, booking may be required in August, but not needed in November. In many cases the text could provide a booking link, and in most cases it is useful to say how far in advance booking may be necessary - "during the school summer holidays book 4 weeks ahead, in winter same day bookings may be possible". AlasdairW (talk) 22:14, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I would argue we need both for that exact reason – the unfortunate reality with using plain text is it can easily be glossed over; much harder to gloss over an icon, though. //shb (t | c | m) 22:19, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I agree with AlasdairW. Bolding the text is fine, but I don't see how an icon will be clearer. People always miss stuff. It's not our responsibility to use symbols for everything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:41, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- As others have stated, I agree that a bolded text string is best. Icons are clutter when they aren't obvious, used often, and used consistently. Bold text is simple and stands out. Mrkstvns (talk) 22:39, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I would argue we need both for that exact reason – the unfortunate reality with using plain text is it can easily be glossed over; much harder to gloss over an icon, though. //shb (t | c | m) 22:19, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I think text is better. There isn't a standard icon that everybody recognises, and in many cases extra text is useful. For instance in the original example, booking may be required in August, but not needed in November. In many cases the text could provide a booking link, and in most cases it is useful to say how far in advance booking may be necessary - "during the school summer holidays book 4 weeks ahead, in winter same day bookings may be possible". AlasdairW (talk) 22:14, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- I'm fine with either, but would much prefer to make this a checkbox (and add further explanation e.g. in the "price" field) of the listing template, to make this useful for scripts. Indeed there are different venues, some only require it in peak season etc., or you can come anytime and wait 2h ... -- andree 09:26, 16 August 2026 (UTC)
- One way to get consistency is to write a set of booking templates. A suggested list is:
- {{booking needed}} which would produce:
- Booking mandatory.
- {{booking advised}} which would produce:
- Booking advised.
- One way to get consistency is to write a set of booking templates. A suggested list is:
- I have prepared an icon which shows a clipvboard:
- Yeah, still stinging off my Tiananmen Square experience I'd love a simple checkbox in the form indicating advanced registration is required (converting into whatever text) but given the local/foreigner dichotomy plus other potential edge cases it does seem like just indicating this in the content text is the most helpful/robust path. Brycehughes (talk) 14:41, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- It isn't too hard to write "Reservation required for locals/foreigners". Wouldn't that be enough for the simple cases? Add a "if tickets are sold out, you may still get them from tour companies" if relevant. While this is probably a new phenomenon, long queues have been a fact of life at many places, hopefully noted in the listings, and some restaurants require booking weeks in advance, also hopefully noted. We haven't used bold text for these, but I don't oppose bold-text warnings, as long as only the key words are in bold. –LPfi (talk) 14:15, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- This is absolutely the case in China. Chinese citizens must make advance bookings (typically via a WeChat mini-program) for many attractions while foreigners are given a lot of leeway, and can often just show up and present their passports. This brings up a case that we might need handle: locals are required to book in advance but foreigners are not. Brycehughes (talk) 12:58, 15 August 2026 (UTC)
- {{booking peak}} which would produce
- Booking advised (peak periods).
- plus others as needed. We could have one which has the icon with a red cross on it which for "No bookings taken", but I would advise against having a template for "Bookings not needed" as ths would cause clutter and would also require us to chase up information that might be difficult to find and liable to change.
- Martinvl (talk) 13:35, 16 August 2026 (UTC)
- andree, could you specify which attractions caused your disappointment? That would reveal whether insufficient info in the listings was the cause or, duh, sometimes it helps to read what's written. Grahamsands (talk) 20:53, 16 August 2026 (UTC)
- my growing list contains: Belchite (ghost town), Gaztelugatxe, Zaragoza castle, Grotte de Niaux, Altamira cave (this one was great - you wait in line for 1h, and they give you a ticket with the slot for another 3h later)... -- andree 05:13, 20 August 2026 (UTC)
- andree, could you specify which attractions caused your disappointment? That would reveal whether insufficient info in the listings was the cause or, duh, sometimes it helps to read what's written. Grahamsands (talk) 20:53, 16 August 2026 (UTC)
- I think those icons are far too large and eye-catching. If you use our guide to find info on the place, you should indeed notice bold text in the "content". Normally we don't even use bold for things directed at those that read a paragraph anyway. For scripts, a invisible note is enough. –LPfi (talk) 08:56, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
- A set of multiple templates is much too complicated. Remember, templates are difficult for newcomers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
- Ignoring the icon bit...is there still support for including bookings required as a separate parameter on {{listing}}? //shb (t | c | m) 09:29, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
- For ordinary users, it is superfluous – the free-text details are what they need – and an additional parameter means one more thing to think about when creating or editing a listing. Scripts benefit from a formalised note, such as through a parameter, but what scripts need it? There needs to be a serious need to justify the added editor effort. –LPfi (talk) 09:40, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it technically be easier for new users if it's a separate box on the listing editor? (genuine question btw) //shb (t | c | m) 10:23, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but not for those editing the wikitext. Also, having a checkbox may disincentivise editors from adding more detailed free-text information. If the checkbox adds text, it might not agree with the actual situation. Trying to catch some edge cases in the checkbox interface, it is easy to get into the weeds. –LPfi (talk) 11:30, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
- And if we have "advance booking required", someone will want "advance booking recommended", and someone else a different variation, and then we've got a complex interface that's no longer "easier". Typing ordinary words is already easy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:29, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it technically be easier for new users if it's a separate box on the listing editor? (genuine question btw) //shb (t | c | m) 10:23, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
- For ordinary users, it is superfluous – the free-text details are what they need – and an additional parameter means one more thing to think about when creating or editing a listing. Scripts benefit from a formalised note, such as through a parameter, but what scripts need it? There needs to be a serious need to justify the added editor effort. –LPfi (talk) 09:40, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
- Moreover a text explanation is needed if it's not obvious why booking's required. For instance "Booking is essential -
- - as they only lay on enough food and staff for booked guests, and can’t cater for walk-ins."
- - as the chapel is tiny, with footfall restricted to preserve the frescos."
- - for the royal apartments, then you tour the rest of the palace at your own pace."
- - as the fort is within the military zone, and you need to show ID."
- and so on. Everyone in this discussion understands the term "booking essential" and its equivalents, so why suppose our readers cannot? They're independent-minded travellers, and shouldn't be treated as post-literate flea-brains who can only be engaged via icons, emojis, cartoons and flashing lights. Grahamsands (talk) 12:50, 18 August 2026 (UTC)
- Indeed, my point is to avoid getting to the venue and finding out you drove 2h with your family to see closed doors... The reasons for mandatory booking are various and mostly understandable, and I personally don't mind missing out stuff - the frustrating part is when your plan disintegrates due to not remembering to check everything upfront. Because of honest "who would have thought <this particular thing> requires booking?". It doesn't matter in the end why - maybe other people are more clever, or 3/4 of the tickets are pre-reserved by group tours... -- andree 05:37, 20 August 2026 (UTC)
- We could have prefilled options: mandatory booking (otherwise there's noone to guide/open the venue; or because they don't sell tickets locally), mandatory booking in high seasons, recommended booking (to not wait in queue for 3h), custom text/nothing...
- I tried using Trip Planner for my vacation/roadtrip and apart from ideas for that tool, I think being able to see highlighted what needs special attention beforehand (booking) would have saved me lots of headache.
- Without this, basically I need to cross-check everything with google maps/trip advisor... I'd really love it, if WV headed towards becoming a 1-stop guide - not just data source for other webpages. -- andree 05:25, 20 August 2026 (UTC)
- We cannot ensure there won't be such problems: the traveller who added the listing might have been there in low season (and if you are there in low season, it might be open just some days, while the listing was added in high season), the place might just be closed for repairs the particular day you get there, or whatever. But off course, we should strive for having such info included (although I don't bother telling a place is closed in Midsummer and around Christmas – visitors at such dates should check for themselves). –LPfi (talk) 08:08, 20 August 2026 (UTC)
- yep, my primary motivation is really to indicate somehow that one has to plan for the venue days/weeks/months ahead... We can leave the details to the reader. -- andree 20:00, 20 August 2026 (UTC)
- (#Today I learned that places close for Midsummer in Finland.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:23, 20 August 2026 (UTC)
- -)
- The warning should be in Finland#Holidays, which currently says:
- '[…] Most shops and offices are closed on most of these holidays (even 24-hr-daily venues on some of them)'
- We should perhaps add some language on museums and the like, which don't follow the hours of offices and shops. I'll try to do something about it.
- –LPfi (talk) 06:22, 21 August 2026 (UTC)
- Done. Might have missed something. –LPfi (talk) 07:04, 21 August 2026 (UTC)
- We cannot ensure there won't be such problems: the traveller who added the listing might have been there in low season (and if you are there in low season, it might be open just some days, while the listing was added in high season), the place might just be closed for repairs the particular day you get there, or whatever. But off course, we should strive for having such info included (although I don't bother telling a place is closed in Midsummer and around Christmas – visitors at such dates should check for themselves). –LPfi (talk) 08:08, 20 August 2026 (UTC)
- and so on. Everyone in this discussion understands the term "booking essential" and its equivalents, so why suppose our readers cannot? They're independent-minded travellers, and shouldn't be treated as post-literate flea-brains who can only be engaged via icons, emojis, cartoons and flashing lights. Grahamsands (talk) 12:50, 18 August 2026 (UTC)
---
There was no big push-back against some form of this. Could you, @Andyrom75:, adapt listing the editor and renderer to include this field? I can do it too in Module:Listing, but you'll have to then sync it etc. anyway :) I'd suggest a drop-down box with allowed edit and some predefined values ("Mandatory booking", "Advance booking highly recommended in high season", "Booking will save you hours of waiting"). I'd say if the value is non-empty, it should be highlighted with bold and put right before "price" field in the render. We can evaluate use of this field e.g. in a year and if it's not used, we can drop it. We can consider icons if text will look strange/insufficient. Sounds ok to everyone?
- Where do you see a consensus for a symbol or special field for this? Lots of great points have been made in opposition, and I for one continue to oppose the idea and support the use of ordinary text for this purpose. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:33, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
- I reread the thread and would say that there clearly is no consensus for anything other than text. ---- Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:36, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
- Yep, I myself am fine with that honestly (from my side it's plenty enough that the template will signify 'attention needed' with non-empty parameter). Thus "We can consider icons if..." :) -- andree 17:50, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
- How about icon with mouse over pop up? Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:03, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- Yep, I myself am fine with that honestly (from my side it's plenty enough that the template will signify 'attention needed' with non-empty parameter). Thus "We can consider icons if..." :) -- andree 17:50, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
Collapsing/de-collapsing in mobile view
[edit source]In mobile view collapsing / de-collapsing doen not work in some articles. In portrait mode de-collapsing does not work. In landscape mode all sections are de-collapsed but cannot be collapsed, making scrolling though a large article time consuming. Examples: Vulcano, Panarea. FredTC (talk) 10:29, 18 August 2026 (UTC)
- Has it always been like that, or is this a new behavior? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:23, 18 August 2026 (UTC)
- +1 – I thought it was always like that. //shb (t | c | m) 21:21, 18 August 2026 (UTC)
- It happens with some articles, but not all articles. Example: Luang Prabang is OK. FredTC (talk) 06:26, 19 August 2026 (UTC)
- When I switch to mobile view on my laptop, I cannot collapse chapters in the above mentioned Vulcano and Panarea, but collapsing Luang Prabang is done correct. FredTC (talk) 13:55, 25 August 2026 (UTC)
- It happens with some articles, but not all articles. Example: Luang Prabang is OK. FredTC (talk) 06:26, 19 August 2026 (UTC)
- +1 – I thought it was always like that. //shb (t | c | m) 21:21, 18 August 2026 (UTC)
WikiConference North America 2026 editing challenge coming up
[edit source]In about 4 weeks' time, I will be co-judging the conference's editing challenge. Specifically for Wikivoyage, participants will be asked to update any page in Alberta since the conference will take place in Edmonton. Peak editing will take place between September 24-26. Based on the same contest from past 2 years, I'm expecting 10-15 editors to participate (though there might be more this year because we will be awarding physical prizes to top 3 at the end of the conference). Please ping me for any problematic edits you observed so that I can discount their score. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:27, 19 August 2026 (UTC)
- Sounds like a great initiative! Looking forward to the results. //shb (t | c | m) 04:59, 19 August 2026 (UTC)
Interim progress report on the latest West African editing project
[edit source]I think this editing project has so far been very good for the site, with lots of useful information and articles added. The inevitable issues that come up when new users start editing here - such as the creation of stubs on topics that may or may not fulfill the criteria at Wikivoyage:What is an article; omission of IsPartOf information, the lack of mentions of regions used in parent articles and the omission of default pagebanners; extensive copying from Wikipedia; and various questions of style - have required work, but so far, I think the results have been great and worth noting and thanking the participants for! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:25, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- We have an edit notice that pre-fills the outline. Are people using that? Could we make it easier to discover (e.g., mention in Welcome pages)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:01, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- It's a good idea to add a link to Wikivoyage:Article templates and Wikivoyage:Breadcrumb navigation to the welcome message templates and give Wikivoyage:Quick small city article template as the example of the most common article template to be used in new articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- I really like this new page Dagaare phrasebook. I do notice that quite a few pages included references and they have to be taken out. OhanaUnitedTalk page 21:34, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- One other thing, and this is no fault of the participants...but there are quite a lot of orphaned pages. It would be nice if more people can help slowly clear out Special:LonelyPages and also link the respective articles to their Wikidata item. //shb (t | c | m) 13:40, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
- Is there a link to the project? Will be there in a few weeks. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:04, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- It's a good idea to add a link to Wikivoyage:Article templates and Wikivoyage:Breadcrumb navigation to the welcome message templates and give Wikivoyage:Quick small city article template as the example of the most common article template to be used in new articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
Alternatives to xe.com for Russia
[edit source]Title, basically. xe.com has recently stopped supporting exchange rates for Russia and Belarus, and I'm wondering if anyone here knows of any alternative reliable sites that we can use as a substitute for exchange rate boxes. //shb (t | c | m) 13:46, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- Google? Brycehughes (talk) 14:06, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
- Tangential, but I used XE for international services for over a decade but these days I find them extremely unreliable and their customer service atrocious, so I no longer use them (plus what I used them for has been drastically improved upon by Wise, Revolut, etc.) Brycehughes (talk) 14:09, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah personally I don't love to use xe.com for personal use either – but it is ultimately the source that is used on most currency exchange rate boxes (and at least their url structure is simple enough to use for User:SHB2000/currency updater.js. //shb (t | c | m) 05:27, 25 August 2026 (UTC)
- You could try the Bank of Russia site https://www.cbr.ru/eng/currency_base/daily/. From my experience of travelling in countries that have economic difficulties, there is often a thriving blackmarket rate. In my view where a currency black market or grey market exists, Wikivoyage should note the fact and warn readuers that they partake in these markets at their own risk. In some cases, officials will look the other way while in others currency exchange transactions are heavily policed. Martinvl (talk) 15:07, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
- I suppose the alternate solution is to remove all instances of RUB/BYR outside of Russia#Buy, Belarus#Buy, South Ossetia#Buy or Abkhazia#Buy. Didn't think too much about the black market rates when I initially made this thread. //shb (t | c | m) 11:59, 2 September 2026 (UTC)
- It might be worthwhile adding a section to the article Money concerning black markets. My own experience of black markets was between 1976 and 1981 - all the instances were in Africa and my own experience might be out of date as economic policies in vogue at the time might well now have been abandoned. The line that a section in the article should take is how to recognise economic problems in the destination country from abroad, to observe that if there are conomic problems, that there might be a black market and to end with the warning "Wikivoyage cautions against breaking currency laws in the same way that it cautions against breaking any other laws in destination countries". Martinvl (talk) 20:19, 2 September 2026 (UTC)
- We do have Money#Black market exchange. Should something be added there? –LPfi (talk) 21:25, 2 September 2026 (UTC)
- It might be worthwhile adding a section to the article Money concerning black markets. My own experience of black markets was between 1976 and 1981 - all the instances were in Africa and my own experience might be out of date as economic policies in vogue at the time might well now have been abandoned. The line that a section in the article should take is how to recognise economic problems in the destination country from abroad, to observe that if there are conomic problems, that there might be a black market and to end with the warning "Wikivoyage cautions against breaking currency laws in the same way that it cautions against breaking any other laws in destination countries". Martinvl (talk) 20:19, 2 September 2026 (UTC)
- I suppose the alternate solution is to remove all instances of RUB/BYR outside of Russia#Buy, Belarus#Buy, South Ossetia#Buy or Abkhazia#Buy. Didn't think too much about the black market rates when I initially made this thread. //shb (t | c | m) 11:59, 2 September 2026 (UTC)
- You could try the Bank of Russia site https://www.cbr.ru/eng/currency_base/daily/. From my experience of travelling in countries that have economic difficulties, there is often a thriving blackmarket rate. In my view where a currency black market or grey market exists, Wikivoyage should note the fact and warn readuers that they partake in these markets at their own risk. In some cases, officials will look the other way while in others currency exchange transactions are heavily policed. Martinvl (talk) 15:07, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah personally I don't love to use xe.com for personal use either – but it is ultimately the source that is used on most currency exchange rate boxes (and at least their url structure is simple enough to use for User:SHB2000/currency updater.js. //shb (t | c | m) 05:27, 25 August 2026 (UTC)
- Tangential, but I used XE for international services for over a decade but these days I find them extremely unreliable and their customer service atrocious, so I no longer use them (plus what I used them for has been drastically improved upon by Wise, Revolut, etc.) Brycehughes (talk) 14:09, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
FYI: Travel in the age of scrolling: TUI Musement research reveals 4 in 10 travellers visit tourist sites to capture social media content
[edit source]https://www.tuigroup.com/en/newsroom/news/travel-in-the-age-of-scrolling-tui-musement-research-reveals-4-in-10-travellers-visit-tourist-sites-to-capture-social-media-content ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:46, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- It reminds me of one kind of tourism that once made me nauseating, and it's "checklist tourism". My family relies on this kind of travel whenever they plan one. In this case, instead of going to a destination for a true break from daily hustle, they do so to touch every single corner of it, covering almost all attractions in 2-3 days. For Digha and Puri (the common destinations for family travel), the number of POIs is much less. However, during our 2025 trip to Visakhapatnam (Vizag), the experience was nauseating due to the high number of POIs. They tried to cover everything from RK Beach to Thotlakonda in a single day, and I vomited after the itinerary.
- Since I will be graduating in a year or so, I have decided that my future solo trips will focus on true breaks from hustle rather just checking boxes. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 17:05, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- Oh and also, checklist tourism can not only lead to travel fatigue but also planning fatigue, especially if it's a large place, as my parents debate on which attractions to visit (or revisit) or not. Even for smaller destinations, my parents oscillate back and forth between planning a Puri trip versus a Digha one, as both are vary familiar to them as "tourist destinations". The oscillation is mainly driven by whether they can find non-waitlisted AC train tickets or not (cf. rail travel in India).
- If it were me, I would not get bogged into such a planning fatigue and instead focus on a nearcation to somewhere else (like Bishnupur or Ambika Kalna). Even Darjeeling or Purulia could be worth visiting as I never explored them before. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 17:21, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- I don't think I would like that style of travel, either. I don't like running from one thing to another, especially if you only spend a few minutes looking at each one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:09, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- I think for me the question heavily depends on the local city's weather and what exactly there is to see. If it's just monuments, or if it's a cold place, I have no issues with fast-paced travel – but if it's somewhere hot or if it's those "checklist items" are museums, I would definitely not enjoy it nearly as much either. //shb (t | c | m) 05:01, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
- Actually, the city I visited in 2025 was quite hilly, and we had to climb multiple hills in a single day (Kailasagiri, Simhachalam, Rama Naidu, Rushikonda, Thotlakonda etc.), which is unprecedented in my whole life travelling. There were only two museums in that checklist (aircraft and submarine). Plus, it was on early July, at the onset of monsoon.
- If it was slower-paced, I could manage it better. But my father could not obtain work leaves from his office, and so he had to squeeze everything for 2-4 July. However, no one has told him to cover everything listed in the "See" and "Do" sections of the Visakhapatnam article, so he could leave faraway attractions for another trip. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 05:11, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
- Hills also change things massively for sure. The cities with funiculars to solve this issue are great for this very reason (something I wish we had here). //shb (t | c | m) 08:11, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
- I think for me the question heavily depends on the local city's weather and what exactly there is to see. If it's just monuments, or if it's a cold place, I have no issues with fast-paced travel – but if it's somewhere hot or if it's those "checklist items" are museums, I would definitely not enjoy it nearly as much either. //shb (t | c | m) 05:01, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
- I don't think I would like that style of travel, either. I don't like running from one thing to another, especially if you only spend a few minutes looking at each one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:09, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
- I've been backpacking pretty full on for about a decade now, with a bit of travel before that, and it has been interesting to see how the nature of backpacking has changed. Back in the day, you'd have a pretty large class of backpackers who travelled just to travel. Travel-bums, they were, like ski-bums. They'd populate hostels around the world, and generally formed the robust backbone of a strong travel community. They thrived less on external validation from their peers; the motivation was more a quiet rebellion against The Man, man. Drugs, alcohol, and doing more or less nothing (for days, weeks and even months) were far more prevalent behaviours than they are today. The demand for comfort was lower; the demand for untrammeled freedom and independence was higher. When non-travel-bums, normies (like me, at least then) visited an exotic locale, you'd get swept up into this culture. Suddenly, you'd find yourself doing nothing for days; sitting, perhaps socialising, perhaps laying in a hammock. The world stood still when you travelled, in a sense. It doesn't feel like this anymore. Today, backpacking seems more goals-based: I will accomplish this, this and this, and return home with baseline+x likes on Instagram, etc. Sitting on your arse (and using drugs, etc.) is no longer particularly accepted nor embraced, and you'll likely lead a lonely travel life if this is your M.O. Hostels and backpacker-oriented hotels have adapted. Hand-holding "experiences" and tours now dominate the typical hostel stay. One is now usually expected to arrive at hostel, and then assign themselves to a tour leaving the next day. At the same time, comfort has greatly improved. Dorm beds are now curtained and dorm rooms air conditioned. Private rooms are no longer a rarity exploited only by couples (long term or sudden), but by backpackers who simply demand a higher degree of comfort. The hostel industry has become winner-take-all, with those offering nightly events and daily tours being booked out days or even weeks in advance, while others languish with travellers that simply couldn't book in time. I think there are/were two major factors that have impacted the change: 1) social media and 2) the pandemic. The former creating the impetus for a certain type of goals-based travel, raising prices and killing off the old-breed of travel-bums, while the latter invoking a near-literal fear-of-god in younger travellers and establishing a higher baseline for safety, comfort, etc. (also raising prices). Anyway, sorry, /rant, but my thoughts. Brycehughes (talk) 14:56, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
- hey don't feel the need to apologise – I quite enjoyed reading your insight (as someone who's thought about doing this very on and off for a while now). //shb (t | c | m) 02:38, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
- Heh. What's a pub without the occassional rant ey? Brycehughes (talk) 02:31, 25 August 2026 (UTC)
- hey don't feel the need to apologise – I quite enjoyed reading your insight (as someone who's thought about doing this very on and off for a while now). //shb (t | c | m) 02:38, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
MassMessage request
[edit source]Per the consensus at Wikivoyage talk:Travel Tracker#Message to affected users, could a sysop please send out a MassMessage to the users at Wikivoyage:Travel Tracker Privacy Notice/Recipients with the contents defined in Wikivoyage:Travel Tracker Privacy Notice/Message and the subject line "Your privacy and use of the Travel Tracker"? Thanks, Sdkb talk 02:42, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
- For full transparency, this request comes after Sdkb ran over to Meta to request an enwikivoyage massmessage over there. A bit disappointing that Sdkb continually refuses to respect site practices and project autonomy. The bit around the use of OS is still unanswered (so not a consensus), even if there's some backing for a message, but I'll leave that for whichever admin decides to handle this request. //shb (t | c | m) 03:37, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
- The consensus to send the message was formed on this site, not on Meta, so I do not see any autonomy issue. With Sbb1413's note below and with the change to your Travel Tracker gadget, I'm glad this is now resolved. I wish it had not been so difficult; taking accountability for problems that arise when we make mistakes (as humans do) is a value we should all strive for. Best, Sdkb talk 04:50, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
- @Sdkb: "The consensus to send the message was formed on this site, not on Meta, so I do not see any autonomy issue" – barely so (the fact that this doesn't meet OS-1 still remains unanswered for), and no. Running to Meta while barely having the consensus and also trying local measures is a gross misunderstanding of community autonomy. There are 34 admins here, 23 of which have edited in the last 60 days – that by definition is no means a "small wiki", as you claimed on Meta (and you didn't exhaust local measures either). //shb (t | c | m) 06:03, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
- I think that revealing the places someone has traveled to does have the potential for real-life negative consequences. Personally, I'd have suggested ordinary deletion (or have given people both options), but the key thing is that people have now been informed and can take whatever measures they personally want to take. If we're lucky, nobody will make any requests, and the only practical result is that people will believe that we care more about privacy than social media platforms. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:47, 27 August 2026 (UTC)
- That's not really my point (except the OS bit – can't exactly say how many emails have been sent, but the user rights log should potentially give a hint on how many were actioned upon). My concern was that running to another wiki to request action that affects only the English Wikivoyage sets an incredibly bad precedent (thankfully it didn't, because most Meta admins know when to and when not to get involved). It's not against policy, but maybe it should be, though I'll start a discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Consensus sometime later today for more broader discussion on this. //shb (t | c | m) 01:08, 27 August 2026 (UTC)
- You complained that "the fact that this doesn't meet OS-1 still remains unanswered for". I have now answered that.
- I don't actually care who pushes the buttons for sending a message we've already agreed to send. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:19, 27 August 2026 (UTC)
- Decisions affecting the English Wikivoyage only should be decided and actioned on the English Wikivoyage. This isn't a small wiki, and I don't think it's uncontroversial to say that most community members here value transparency. //shb (t | c | m) 08:02, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
- That's not really my point (except the OS bit – can't exactly say how many emails have been sent, but the user rights log should potentially give a hint on how many were actioned upon). My concern was that running to another wiki to request action that affects only the English Wikivoyage sets an incredibly bad precedent (thankfully it didn't, because most Meta admins know when to and when not to get involved). It's not against policy, but maybe it should be, though I'll start a discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Consensus sometime later today for more broader discussion on this. //shb (t | c | m) 01:08, 27 August 2026 (UTC)
- I think that revealing the places someone has traveled to does have the potential for real-life negative consequences. Personally, I'd have suggested ordinary deletion (or have given people both options), but the key thing is that people have now been informed and can take whatever measures they personally want to take. If we're lucky, nobody will make any requests, and the only practical result is that people will believe that we care more about privacy than social media platforms. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:47, 27 August 2026 (UTC)
- @Sdkb: "The consensus to send the message was formed on this site, not on Meta, so I do not see any autonomy issue" – barely so (the fact that this doesn't meet OS-1 still remains unanswered for), and no. Running to Meta while barely having the consensus and also trying local measures is a gross misunderstanding of community autonomy. There are 34 admins here, 23 of which have edited in the last 60 days – that by definition is no means a "small wiki", as you claimed on Meta (and you didn't exhaust local measures either). //shb (t | c | m) 06:03, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
- The consensus to send the message was formed on this site, not on Meta, so I do not see any autonomy issue. With Sbb1413's note below and with the change to your Travel Tracker gadget, I'm glad this is now resolved. I wish it had not been so difficult; taking accountability for problems that arise when we make mistakes (as humans do) is a value we should all strive for. Best, Sdkb talk 04:50, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
- @Sdkb, SHB2000:
Done as a neutral admin, since the travel tracker has been altered to add the T&C that was previously missing. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 04:03, 26 August 2026 (UTC) - Thanks, Sbb1413. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:48, 27 August 2026 (UTC)
AddSitelink
[edit source]Hi everyone!
I’ve been using AddSitelink on English Wikiquote, and I thought it might also be useful on Wikivoyage.
AddSitelink makes it easier to connect a page to an existing Wikidata item using a corresponding Wikipedia article. It adds an "Add sitelink" option to the Tools menu on pages without a Wikidata item.
To try it, add the following to your common.js:
mw.loader.load('//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User:Saroj/AddSitelink.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript'); Feedback is welcome! Saroj (talk) 09:37, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
- धन्यवाद. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:51, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you! It has sped up my cronjob of connecting a page to a Wikidata item. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 09:57, 1 September 2026 (UTC)
AI guidelines
[edit source]There was a discussion on AI guidelines in May–June, prompted by the Meta initiative, but it died out. This talk page remark isn't based on explicit policy that I'm aware of, although I assume it agrees with community feelings (@Sgroey, Globetrotter30:).
I think we should try to enact some official guidelines on AI use. Is there some implicit consensus on the matter? Does my draft at User:LPfi/AI guidelines reflect the feelings of most of us? Are there points on which we have to agree to disagree? Could it be refined to something we can agree on? This draft wasn't really discussed in the last round, but I believe it got some support. If there is wide or strong opposition, we at least (hopefully) know some things that need to be taken into account when writing a new draft.
The discussion should probably be at Wikivoyage talk:AI guidelines#New try.
–LPfi (talk) 09:33, 1 September 2026 (UTC)
- Hi mate, you really are across everything! I am surprised we don't have any AI rules. I think almost all of us wikivoyage editors would be strongly opposed to AI, if only because AI companies hoover up our work en masse (some would call it stealing) to use to train their clankers. That's how I feel anyway.
- I will add my support to your proposal Sgroey (talk) 02:12, 2 September 2026 (UTC)
- I have no objection to training AI on our work. That's legal under our license: anyone can use our content to try to make money.
- I do object to having factual errors on the wikis (no matter how they get there), and to high-speed contributions, and to "conversations" in which the other person uses a chatbot to post long comments, but there's no meeting of the minds. I encountered one of these at the English Wikipedia a while ago. The editor posted a proposal, a couple of us said we can't do this part of it, they (i.e., their chatbot) agreed, and then the next day, they're back making the same proposal. Hey, didn't you – or at least someone using your account – agree just yesterday that we weren't doing that? It turned out that it wasn't dementia or drugs or drunkenness; they were posting whatever the chatbot said, with no regard for what the chatbot said the day before. (They got blocked, and good riddance.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:08, 2 September 2026 (UTC)
- @Sgroey: re "I am surprised we don't have any AI rules", mostly true, but there is a provision for speedy deletion if an article is mostly visibly AI-generated. //shb (t | c | m) 02:53, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
- I don't feel up to reading through the Meta page you linked, but otherwise, I agree with the proposed policy as currently phrased. I hope you don't mind that I made several substantive changes in the phrasing, substituting "must" and "may not" in place of "should" and "should not", which are mere recommendations. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:34, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you. The Meta page is an example of how ill-prepared proposals result in confusing walls of texts. It is relevant, but I don't think it is going anywhere – I hope it won't at this round. –LPfi (talk) 06:20, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
- The draft is clear that is is not okay to use AI to generate articles, but it is unclear as to whether it is (or isn't okay) to use AI to spell check, copy edit, etc., and to what extent having AI modify preexisting article text is acceptable. I think we should be explicit about this. Brycehughes (talk) 08:09, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
- I added a section. I am not sure whether the guidelines I added are the ones we want, so check it.
- We might also want to say something about translations, which I find risky in the case where one doesn't know both languages quite well. The risks are similar to traditional machine translation – some of them used techniques that resemble LLM-based AI. We might want to have a section on that elsewhere, but at least a summary and a link should probably be included here.
- –LPfi (talk) 11:32, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks. Made a couple changes; feel free to revert/rewrite obviously. Re the latter, I think given that most translation software uses AI or something approximately it these days, it's a bit of a moot point. Translation is AI (probably for the better, honestly). Brycehughes (talk) 12:15, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
Number of articles by country, visualised
[edit source]
One of my favourite userspace pages has to be User:DaGizza/Articles by country by DaGizza. Not only does that show which countries have had the most progress in terms of coverage on this site, but also which areas lack the most coverage. I had quite some spare time today, so I've decided to put all of it into a map. Should go without saying that numbers are never the whole story; some countries will be dark red because they're genuinely not large in size, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. //shb (t | c | m) 04:18, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for making the map. I've wanted to create more tables which show the breakdown of the larger countries by state/province but I've never gotten around to do it. There is a skew and bias within countries as well. Gizza (roam) 05:44, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- I love Gizza's table and now your map. Just a heads-up. There's a new tool on toolforge called Maphue (https://maphue.toolforge.org/) that everyone can use to create map in editable SVG. In case you're busy in the future and someone wants to update your map (or the visa entry requirement maps), they can directly edit the file without having to completely recreate the map from scratch. OhanaUnitedTalk page 06:27, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- Ooh, thanks for that – will bookmark that tool. //shb (t | c | m) 06:54, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- eugh...annoyingly that gadget has no Kosovo option :( (XK also doesn't appear as an ISO dropdown) //shb (t | c | m) 13:29, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- No problem. This tool was created right after Wikimania (i.e. late July) so not a lot of people are aware of it, especially if you're not on the Wikimania Telegram chat. It still miss some functionalities like you can only map worldwide, Europe and Africa (no other continents). It's not the tool maker's fault though, since those maps are not properly done (SVG wise) and don't carry the country level data to allow for the picker to work. OhanaUnitedTalk page 16:34, 6 September 2026 (UTC)
- eugh...annoyingly that gadget has no Kosovo option :( (XK also doesn't appear as an ISO dropdown) //shb (t | c | m) 13:29, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- Ooh, thanks for that – will bookmark that tool. //shb (t | c | m) 06:54, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- I love Gizza's table and now your map. Just a heads-up. There's a new tool on toolforge called Maphue (https://maphue.toolforge.org/) that everyone can use to create map in editable SVG. In case you're busy in the future and someone wants to update your map (or the visa entry requirement maps), they can directly edit the file without having to completely recreate the map from scratch. OhanaUnitedTalk page 06:27, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- Well, one way of dealing with the size discrepancy is to use a ratio: the number of articles to area, population, or number of urban settlements. Daggerstab (talk) 11:38, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- Ideally yes. But I unfortunately don't have the skills to execute an SQL query that fetches all of those from Wikidata and also the number of articles breadcrumbed to a country. //shb (t | c | m) 12:23, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- Do you just need a query? You could ask an AI to build one for you (preferably one connected to the internet so it can read the docs). Brycehughes (talk) 07:23, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- Ideally yes. But I unfortunately don't have the skills to execute an SQL query that fetches all of those from Wikidata and also the number of articles breadcrumbed to a country. //shb (t | c | m) 12:23, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
- Fine, you beat me to it! It was fun vibecoding this :D
- Here is some graphics of distributions (yellow=less, blue=more) - total number of articles, #articles/country size, #articles/population, #articles/WP country article views:
- total:
- size:
- population:
- views:
- I can provide CSVs (or the script) that work for maphue.com if someone wants it... maphue.toolsforge requires manually entering csv per category, it seems, not really convenient :-/
- -- andree 07:36, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- oh this is good...I love these. //shb (t | c | m) 08:05, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- @Andree.sk: Any reason why Greenland, Faroe Islands, Denmark, New Caledonia, French Polynesia, Falkland Islands and Puerto Rico are grey (no data)? Also, we need legends in the file description! OhanaUnitedTalk page 16:41, 6 September 2026 (UTC)
- no idea, honestly... It was a one-shot test, but if you think it would be useful, I can try to setup some repeating thingie on toolforge, and check what's up with the above... We can also compare with de:, fr: and others :) -- andree 16:44, 6 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for the further maps Andree. Other ratios which I think would be interesting are pages per GDP, total tourist arrivals and tourism revenue. Also because this is English Wikivoyage, pages per total number of English speakers. Gizza (roam) 00:38, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- Something else I can't help but notice, at least for Europe, is that the countries that speak a less spoken language seem to have more coverage per population (Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania, NMK, Greece, Finland). It has correlated directly with my real-life experience using English in Northern/Central Europe over Western Europe, though. //shb (t | c | m) 00:42, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- I assume that developed/populous European countries have branches of Wikivoyage in their own language, so most of the locals willing to contribute to Wikivoyage do it in the respective branch rather than English (and translating requires more work). The same phenomenon explains the thick coverage of native English speaking countries and India. Daggerstab (talk) 05:55, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- That does explain. //shb (t | c | m) 07:06, 13 September 2026 (UTC)
- @SHB2000, what does NMK stand for? Northern Macedonia (Makedonia or something like that in their language, I guess)? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:04, 13 September 2026 (UTC)
- Yep, it's North Macedonia, specifically the code found on North Macedonian license plates (sorry I realise that's pretty obscure come to think of it – I got a bit too lazy). //shb (t | c | m) 13:08, 13 September 2026 (UTC)
- @SHB2000, what does NMK stand for? Northern Macedonia (Makedonia or something like that in their language, I guess)? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:04, 13 September 2026 (UTC)
- That does explain. //shb (t | c | m) 07:06, 13 September 2026 (UTC)
- I assume that developed/populous European countries have branches of Wikivoyage in their own language, so most of the locals willing to contribute to Wikivoyage do it in the respective branch rather than English (and translating requires more work). The same phenomenon explains the thick coverage of native English speaking countries and India. Daggerstab (talk) 05:55, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- Something else I can't help but notice, at least for Europe, is that the countries that speak a less spoken language seem to have more coverage per population (Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania, NMK, Greece, Finland). It has correlated directly with my real-life experience using English in Northern/Central Europe over Western Europe, though. //shb (t | c | m) 00:42, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for the further maps Andree. Other ratios which I think would be interesting are pages per GDP, total tourist arrivals and tourism revenue. Also because this is English Wikivoyage, pages per total number of English speakers. Gizza (roam) 00:38, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- no idea, honestly... It was a one-shot test, but if you think it would be useful, I can try to setup some repeating thingie on toolforge, and check what's up with the above... We can also compare with de:, fr: and others :) -- andree 16:44, 6 September 2026 (UTC)
- @Andree.sk: Any reason why Greenland, Faroe Islands, Denmark, New Caledonia, French Polynesia, Falkland Islands and Puerto Rico are grey (no data)? Also, we need legends in the file description! OhanaUnitedTalk page 16:41, 6 September 2026 (UTC)
- @Andree.sk (or anyone who is interested): Would you like to write up something like this for https://diff.wikimedia.org/about/#can-i-publish ? It doesn't have to be long or complicated, but I think more people would be interested in this than are likely to see this page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:18, 13 September 2026 (UTC)
- oh this is good...I love these. //shb (t | c | m) 08:05, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
User page archive deletion request
[edit source]Hi, I'm the original userpage owner of User:(WT-en) Dhio270599. I hope to delete it since there are some personal info there but I can't seem to. Any solution? Thank you. Dhiosk (talk) 06:57, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- This is a tricky one. I think it can reasonably be construed that both this account and your Wikitravel account are the same on the basis of username, but I don't think we can legally delete unless the connection between your accounts are 100% confirmed. I do note you did blank the same content on your Wikitravel userpage, though back in 2024. I'm wondering maybe if you can leave a note saying "This is Dhio" or something along the lines on your WT userpage? That's the only way I can think of where the connection would be 100% confirmed. //shb (t | c | m) 12:02, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- Also before anyone suggests it: no, a checkuser is useless since IP data is only stored for up to 90 days. //shb (t | c | m) 12:08, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- Do we have any reason to believe that somebody at WT would impersonate the original account owner? It is of course possible that they would want to disconnect themself from WT but not from Wikivoyage. In that case I suppose they would keep an eye on their Wikivoyage user page and protest if it is deleted against their will. Given that, I think we can trust Dhiosk and delete the page. –LPfi (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- I deleted it now. It can be restored if we decide so, but if there are privacy problems, I think we shouldn't have the page visible during the discussion. –LPfi (talk) 15:53, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- Actually, there is indirect evidence on the now deleted page that User:Dhiosk is the original account owner. –LPfi (talk) 15:56, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- Oh true, I didn't really factor that in. //shb (t | c | m) 23:03, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- I deleted it now. It can be restored if we decide so, but if there are privacy problems, I think we shouldn't have the page visible during the discussion. –LPfi (talk) 15:53, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- Do we have any reason to believe that somebody at WT would impersonate the original account owner? It is of course possible that they would want to disconnect themself from WT but not from Wikivoyage. In that case I suppose they would keep an eye on their Wikivoyage user page and protest if it is deleted against their will. Given that, I think we can trust Dhiosk and delete the page. –LPfi (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
- Also before anyone suggests it: no, a checkuser is useless since IP data is only stored for up to 90 days. //shb (t | c | m) 12:08, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
Fall classes are here again
[edit source]Hello everyone. In few weeks I'll again post a list of articles my students will be working on this Fall. In the meantime they'll be stumbling along as usual following my guide and activities at User:Hanyangprofessor2/Student assignments. Please ping me if there are any problems such as a student repeatedly repeating the same error. As usual, I try to review all of their work and give them feedback ASAP, but there will be ~70-80 students, and I may miss something. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 07:30, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you! I already appreciate their new additions and updates. Please remind your students about Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians. I just did for one of your students. I assume you have discussed with them the difference in intent and style between an encyclopedia and a travel guide.
- All my best, as always,
- Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- Are they Wikipedia editors? I thought this class usually had no previous wiki experience. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- Our past experience is that the students vary in amount of previous experience with Wikipedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:38, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks. Yes, we have an activity discussing differences. We did it last week, in fact; it is one of the first activities we do. The problem is that due to administrative issues this semester, about twenty five students joined the class in the second week... sigh. And students being students, attendance at the first week classes is less than perfect anyway. Sigh x2. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 11:54, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- Understood. They've made great additions and updates already, and we're working with them, as usual. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:42, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you. In the meantime, I'll note the question at Talk:Jeju_City#Split_into_districts? - maybe highlighting it here will invite some experienced editor to offer their thoughts? Korea is small enough I think we are slowly running out of low hanging fruit, and destratification of some larger cities would help. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 04:54, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- Understood. They've made great additions and updates already, and we're working with them, as usual. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:42, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- Are they Wikipedia editors? I thought this class usually had no previous wiki experience. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
New template created for policies
[edit source]I created Template:Policy, adapted from Template:Guideline. It is used for policies. What do you think? Codename Noreste /// ⭐️✨ 16:45, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- That we don't really need these templates? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- I agree. To my knowledge, Wikivoyage has not usually had a formal distinction between "policies" and "guidelines". Maybe that's something we should mention at Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians, as Wikipedians are accustomed to fine-grained distinctions between different levels of rules. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:14, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- err not really? Category:Wikivoyage policies has existed since 2012, and Category:Wikivoyage guidelines since 2021. It's obviously a lot less pronounced on this site, but the distinction has always been there. //shb (t | c | m) 23:08, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- (btw I should clarify that none of what I said should have any standing on whether a separate template is needed – my point, more or less, is that the distinction does exist on this site). //shb (t | c | m) 01:36, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- "Guidelines" was created solely so someone could import one page (Wikivoyage:Deny recognition) and get some kind of "official" status, even though nobody else wanted to call it a policy. I think it was a bad decision, and I think we should go back to our old approach. We need "rules we enforce" and "everything else". We don't need a large or complex taxonomy.
- For example, SHB downgraded several policies to guideline status and converted a help page to a guideline; they could be returned to their original status. Others had no status and could return to that. Wikivoyage:Should I merge two pages? appears to have gotten guideline status without discussion; it doesn't need a tag. Wikivoyage:Banners is in a similar situation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:06, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- But realistically...what's the need to not require a distinction? I don't think it's all that complex to view that guidelines are a lot less rigid than policies and have a lot more leeway for interpretation. //shb (t | c | m) 04:23, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- I never think about such distinctions. Which things are guidelines vs. policies? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:10, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- Guideline pages are more or less, as the name suggests, meant to provide guidance, whereas policies can be thought of as rules. Wikivoyage:Deny recognition is a good example of a guideline – it doesn't require users to follow set practice, but it does indicate what the community generally wants. That's how I've thought of it at least. //shb (t | c | m) 05:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- Except that in many real-world situations, "guidelines" are mandatory.
- And under that definition, there's overlap with other pages. Welcome, Wikipedians isn't tagged as a guideline, but it provides a lot of guidance.
- Additionally, some of the ones you tagged do require users to follow a set practice. When Wikivoyage:Don't tout says "Avoid first person pronouns. Never say our restaurant, or we provide", that's not "what the community generally wants". That's a firm rule that we enforce on listings as soon as we spot the problem.
- WP:DENY is best understood as an opinion about how to interact with editors. Also, it came from enwiki, where the community has declined the opportunity to call it a guideline. I've never been convinced that we need that page at all ("Deny recognition to persistent, attention-seeking vandals – by having a whole page talking about them and inadvertently giving them advice on what they can do!). w:en:Wikipedia:Not every page needs a tag. Even Wikipedia's famous w:en:Wikipedia:Five pillars doesn't have a tag on it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:52, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- Guideline pages are more or less, as the name suggests, meant to provide guidance, whereas policies can be thought of as rules. Wikivoyage:Deny recognition is a good example of a guideline – it doesn't require users to follow set practice, but it does indicate what the community generally wants. That's how I've thought of it at least. //shb (t | c | m) 05:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- I never think about such distinctions. Which things are guidelines vs. policies? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:10, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- Distinction exists on paper, but I don't think people cared (at least not to the same extent as Wikipedia). What I worry more about is the wholesale export and imposition of Wikipedia norms onto Wikivoyage. I'll add a blurb about this behaviour expectation on Wikivoyage: Welcome, Wikipedians. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:32, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- Maybe we should write a page similar to Wikivoyage:Goals and non-goals, describing what we do and don't want to import from Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:54, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- But realistically...what's the need to not require a distinction? I don't think it's all that complex to view that guidelines are a lot less rigid than policies and have a lot more leeway for interpretation. //shb (t | c | m) 04:23, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- err not really? Category:Wikivoyage policies has existed since 2012, and Category:Wikivoyage guidelines since 2021. It's obviously a lot less pronounced on this site, but the distinction has always been there. //shb (t | c | m) 23:08, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
- I agree. To my knowledge, Wikivoyage has not usually had a formal distinction between "policies" and "guidelines". Maybe that's something we should mention at Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians, as Wikipedians are accustomed to fine-grained distinctions between different levels of rules. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:14, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
Sa Su what?
[edit source]I thought that Wikivoyage talk:Time and date formats/Archive 2006-2020#Expanded short names for days of the week ended with a preference to allow the popular "Sat–Sun" abbreviations instead of the unusual "Sa–Su". However, it appears that we never updated Wikivoyage:Time and date formats#Days of the week to reflect that discussion. Shall we finally do that? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:27, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, sure. But that means updating a lot of articles. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 02:30, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- I think the general consensus is that it should be done in theory, but the main argument so far for keeping the current format has been that changing the format requires someone with the skills to program a bot that can fix all time and date formats on some 34,500ish articles. If someone can create a bot that can do so, I think there'd be basically no opposition to using the longer date format. //shb (t | c | m) 03:42, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- Why not get started organically, by letting people use the new version? If we don't start, on the grounds that the change can't be done overnight, we'll never get the change made. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:55, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- "Getting started organically" means we will have no consistency ever. The point behind a manual of style is to make it easier for readers to find and read information. Allowing a variety of formats does not do that. If a bot can make the change, on the other hand, I won't oppose it. Ground Zero (talk) 18:26, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing, Sbb1413, Ground Zero, Koavf, Pashley, Ikan Kekek, DaGizza, AlasdairW: I've spoken to Max off-wiki, and they're very willing to create a bot script that will convert all listings. The only thing remaining that's needed is approval at Wikivoyage:Script_nominations#User:DreamRimmer bot, which needs at least 2 sysops to support (I don't think it includes myself). (I've pinged all active users from the initial discussion in 2017) //shb (t | c | m) 12:28, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- I am ok with having a bot, but I think that we should start organically, and run the bot after a few months after the policy change, when editors have become used to it. It is may be good to restrict the bot to the hours field in listings to reduce errors, but it will leave some days in text to change manually. AlasdairW (talk) 13:15, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- If we start organically...then we go back full circle and then reach the exact point why the change was never implemented 8 years back. //shb (t | c | m) 00:37, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- I am ok with having a bot, but I think that we should start organically, and run the bot after a few months after the policy change, when editors have become used to it. It is may be good to restrict the bot to the hours field in listings to reduce errors, but it will leave some days in text to change manually. AlasdairW (talk) 13:15, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing, Sbb1413, Ground Zero, Koavf, Pashley, Ikan Kekek, DaGizza, AlasdairW: I've spoken to Max off-wiki, and they're very willing to create a bot script that will convert all listings. The only thing remaining that's needed is approval at Wikivoyage:Script_nominations#User:DreamRimmer bot, which needs at least 2 sysops to support (I don't think it includes myself). (I've pinged all active users from the initial discussion in 2017) //shb (t | c | m) 12:28, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- "Getting started organically" means we will have no consistency ever. The point behind a manual of style is to make it easier for readers to find and read information. Allowing a variety of formats does not do that. If a bot can make the change, on the other hand, I won't oppose it. Ground Zero (talk) 18:26, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- Why not get started organically, by letting people use the new version? If we don't start, on the grounds that the change can't be done overnight, we'll never get the change made. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:55, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
- I think the general consensus is that it should be done in theory, but the main argument so far for keeping the current format has been that changing the format requires someone with the skills to program a bot that can fix all time and date formats on some 34,500ish articles. If someone can create a bot that can do so, I think there'd be basically no opposition to using the longer date format. //shb (t | c | m) 03:42, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
Help reviewing proposed protected template change
[edit source]Hi, I have a small, tested CSS fix for a label-alignment bug in a protected template ({{Climate chart/celsius column}}). The Celsius labels are right-aligned instead of centered, so single-digit values sit off-center under their bars. I've already verified the fix against the unprotected sibling template. Could a template editor or admin take a look and apply it?
Thanks! HardlyProductive (talk) 00:05, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- @HardlyProductive: Hi, I've granted you template editor perms for 1 week, which should allow you to edit the climate chart. //shb (t | c | m) 00:08, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks! The change has been made. Feel free to revert the access permissions HardlyProductive (talk) 04:29, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- Done. Let me know if you ever need template editor perms for anything else. //shb (t | c | m) 04:55, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks! The change has been made. Feel free to revert the access permissions HardlyProductive (talk) 04:29, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
Americans in North Korea
[edit source]Hello,
I noticed we have an Americans in Cuba article, but we don't have one for Americans in North Korea. Similar situation, if more gruesome. Anyone willing to help me with this? Americans in North Korea (talk) 06:18, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- Americans in Cuba. Huh. Love those funny topics. Good luck! --Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 11:55, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- I am not sure that the situation is that similar. Americans have difficulties visiting Cuba that Brits or Canadians don't have, but many of the difficulties in visiting North Korea apply to most nationalities. AlasdairW (talk) 13:40, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- I don't want to discourage you from starting a new article, but what would you include that isn't already in North_Korea#Get_in? Ground Zero (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- Echoing what others have said: I think there is less to say about Americans in North Korea than about Americans in Cuba. In both cases, the US government has rules limiting its citizens' travel – but for Cuba those rules aren't very strictly enforced, and a complicated array of exceptions exist. For North Korea there are very few exceptions and not much flexibility, so there's just not as much to say. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:04, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- I don't want to discourage you from starting a new article, but what would you include that isn't already in North_Korea#Get_in? Ground Zero (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
- I am not sure that the situation is that similar. Americans have difficulties visiting Cuba that Brits or Canadians don't have, but many of the difficulties in visiting North Korea apply to most nationalities. AlasdairW (talk) 13:40, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
Adding link spam filter
[edit source]I just added something to do at Greater Columbia and was blocked from including the URI of the festival by the spam filter. I have added dozens (hundreds?) of links for the past 20+ years and never experienced this. Has someone been tinkering with the AbuseFilter? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:48, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- It was due to this edit. See User talk:Ikan Kekek#Special:Diff/5346784. NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh 21:52, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- Okay, wow. Yes, that needs to be undone ASAP. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:54, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- What was wrong with adding that URL to the spam filter? And what URL were you blocked from adding? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- It blocks all ".com" domains. Surely that wasn't intended. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:09, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- You edited your comment: several .com domains. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:12, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- I really don't understand the problem, but if you can figure out how to block only imlil-trekking dot com, could someone please fix it? I've added and subtracted URLs from the spam filter list for decades without a problem, but that page is not formatted the same way it used to be, so maybe it wasn't clear exactly where each line was supposed to start and end, somehow. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- I can try, but please undo this ASAP. This is surely blocking many constructive edits. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:26, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- I restored the status quo ante and then re-added the new spam filter in alphabetical order as instructed on the page. If this causes a problem, I'm at a total loss why that could be the case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:34, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- The issue is fixed now, thanks. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:36, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- The filter also blocks the domain as intended. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:37, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- Is there a good reason why any URL filter should be 2 lines long? That was what caused the problem in the first place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:40, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- There is not. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:41, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- It was on a single line. Perhaps it got wrapped – did you have a narrow window/screen? –LPfi (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
- I was using my iPhone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:15, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
- It was on a single line. Perhaps it got wrapped – did you have a narrow window/screen? –LPfi (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
- There is not. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:41, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- Is there a good reason why any URL filter should be 2 lines long? That was what caused the problem in the first place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:40, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- The filter also blocks the domain as intended. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:37, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- The issue is fixed now, thanks. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:36, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- I restored the status quo ante and then re-added the new spam filter in alphabetical order as instructed on the page. If this causes a problem, I'm at a total loss why that could be the case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:34, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- I can try, but please undo this ASAP. This is surely blocking many constructive edits. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:26, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- I really don't understand the problem, but if you can figure out how to block only imlil-trekking dot com, could someone please fix it? I've added and subtracted URLs from the spam filter list for decades without a problem, but that page is not formatted the same way it used to be, so maybe it wasn't clear exactly where each line was supposed to start and end, somehow. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- What was wrong with adding that URL to the spam filter? And what URL were you blocked from adding? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- Okay, wow. Yes, that needs to be undone ASAP. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:54, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
- My next edit allowed a URI just fine. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:54, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
Dynamic map not updating after adding new listing coordinates
[edit source]Hello,
I am currently learning how to edit Wikivoyage for a university class project. I recently added a new restaurant listing (Manse Haejanggukbap) to the Pyeongtaek article and made sure to include the GPS coordinates (lat=37.0114 | long=127.1094).
However, the dynamic map does not seem to be updating to reflect this new pin. Could someone please explain how the map refresh process works, or let me know if there is an extra step I might have missed?
My professor and I will be reviewing this together next week, so any technical guidance or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Nokmalwiki (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
- Manse Haejanggukbap is now appearing on the map as marker 14. There was one edit after yours, but that didn't change that should affect this. If this happens again, try opening the page on a different device to avoid any device caching problems. AlasdairW (talk) 08:41, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
- or just use Special:Purge. //shb (t | c | m) 13:42, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
- @Nokmalwiki Sometimes you have to refresh the page after saving your edit. Sometimes it takes several refreshes and/or several minutes. Purplebackpack89 13:04, 11 September 2026 (UTC)