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Has the "sleep test" outlived its usefulness?
In light of these two diffs, I'm starting to be of the opinion that the "can you sleep there" passage in wiaa does more harm than good. It's simply too ripe for misunderstanding: we've explained and explained and explained to people that it's not intended as a hard-and-fast rule that says a town without a hotel is automatically disqualified from having its own article, but rather as a general guideline to differentiate the types of places that get their own articles (i.e. cities and towns themselves, not individual attractions therein). But this continues (understandably given the fairly ambiguous wording of the policy) to fall on deaf ears no matter how often we repeat ourselves. So I think it's time to come up with a better metaphor with which to illustrate this concept. I'm going to ping Powers here because I know this has frustrated him too in the past. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:21, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- Agree there are some cases where no sleep is not a reason to remove the article but the examples you give are not particularly good ones. On Hazettville maybe a little more information should have been moved to the region article but unless someone creates a more detailed list of stores and restaurants for the place then it is not worth having a separate article. On the Westmoreland article the timeline needs to be taken into account. At the time of the original merge there was no useful information in the article. That has now changed, so an article for here is now justified. If wording needs to be changed then it should be to do with the amount of information the article has not how much information it could have. --Traveler100 (talk) 04:50, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- I really don't agree on merging everything just because there is not yet much information in an article for a town or city that actually has a fair number of sights, activities, hotels, restaurants, etc. However we define it, it has to take into account how much content an article reasonably could have as well as the amount of content it currently has. And I'm really not sure what metaphor or definition would really be clear enough. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:00, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- "How much content an article currently has" is in fact a very poor indicator of whether it qualifies as an article per wiaa. There are cities of millions of people that have less well developed articles than the one for Childs, a small hamlet with a population of a few dozen that's a previous OtBP and current Starnom - that's just the nature of the beast here. And for newbie contributors who aren't intimately familiar with the workings of our site, filling in the empty sections of a skeleton article is a much more straightforward thing to figure out than how to de-merge an article that's been merged and redirected to some more geographically broad entity. The determination should be made entirely on the basis of how much content the article conceivably could have, if it were complete. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- So it sounds like it might be a good idea to ask yourself a range of questions when considering if something counts as an article. "Can you sleep there?", yes, but also for the other 'main' sections; "Are there drinking establishments / restaurants?"; "What can you do?"; "What is there to see?"; or even more broadly "Can I imagine someone wanting to spend time there for any reason?"
- Since having useful information under 'sleep' is a prerequisite for an article being 'usable', "Can you sleep there?" has never struck me as a bad guideline; the problem with the two diffs is with people applying the guideline too literally. Hence why asking a longer list of questions would guide people into sticking to the "spirit of the law, rather than the letter" and keep and develop articles for places that are obviously worthy of an article, even if there are no hotels. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:48, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- "How much content an article currently has" is in fact a very poor indicator of whether it qualifies as an article per wiaa. There are cities of millions of people that have less well developed articles than the one for Childs, a small hamlet with a population of a few dozen that's a previous OtBP and current Starnom - that's just the nature of the beast here. And for newbie contributors who aren't intimately familiar with the workings of our site, filling in the empty sections of a skeleton article is a much more straightforward thing to figure out than how to de-merge an article that's been merged and redirected to some more geographically broad entity. The determination should be made entirely on the basis of how much content the article conceivably could have, if it were complete. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- I really don't agree on merging everything just because there is not yet much information in an article for a town or city that actually has a fair number of sights, activities, hotels, restaurants, etc. However we define it, it has to take into account how much content an article reasonably could have as well as the amount of content it currently has. And I'm really not sure what metaphor or definition would really be clear enough. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:00, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- It would be great to remove the sleep test, but I'm not sure how we are going to judge the amount of content an article could conceivably have. Conceivably a guide could be written about the tiniest hamlet with 2 houses, therefore the test will probably always be passed.
- Could we perhaps require at least one substantial 'Do' or 'See' listing? (and not the Telstra style 'Church' and 'Town hall' listings) Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:49, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that there are problems with the sleep test, but I think we also have problems with (mostly unregistered) editors creating articles for every little place with little more that "Whoville is a town in Who County". These articles are frustrating as the links to them draw in readers who tuen learn nothing about Whoville. I suspect that most are created by editors who feel that they have contributed by creating articles, or who expect that other people will come along to fill out the articles. This is not a productive activity, and we must have a way of managing it.
- Andrewssi2 may be on to an alternative test. Maybe something like "an article should be merged if it has fewer than three listings in the See, Do, Eat, Drink, and Sleep sections". This would avoid problems where a village ends up with an article because a business owners wants to let people know about his/her guesthouse or restaurant.
- I understand AndreCarrotflower's objection to "How much content an article has" as an indicator of whether it qualifies as an article, and I'm trying to figure out how to balance that objection with the objection to contentless articles. While in principle empty sections of articles may attract useful edits, in practice we have lots of articles that just don't. Ground Zero (talk) 15:22, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- [edit conflict] That might work as a general rule, but if a region is quite well covered or being worked on, having a few places mere skeletons as placeholders might be better than messing up the structure by having them merged into the region article or some (not so) nearby destination. --LPfi (talk) 15:26, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- Redirecting doesn't delete the content. If you're working on an article and it's redirected, you can easily restore the content and expand the article by going into the history and editing the version before the redirect. Not really a problem. Ground Zero (talk) 16:09, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- A church or town hall could be a great sight, indeed, so I would strongly disagree with excluding them as a reason for an article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- Redirecting doesn't delete the content. If you're working on an article and it's redirected, you can easily restore the content and expand the article by going into the history and editing the version before the redirect. Not really a problem. Ground Zero (talk) 16:09, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- [edit conflict] That might work as a general rule, but if a region is quite well covered or being worked on, having a few places mere skeletons as placeholders might be better than messing up the structure by having them merged into the region article or some (not so) nearby destination. --LPfi (talk) 15:26, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- A church or town hall could be a great sight, but not simply the word Church or Town Hall. Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:46, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- Under "Eat" we could put "restaurants", and under "Sleep" we could put "hotels" or "in a bed". Ground Zero (talk) 14:00, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- If there are such eateries – but then say so: "Several eateries along the main street, probably none for gourmets" and "A few bed and breakfasts in the town. You could probably find a cottage to rent at the lake". Them not being proper listings is not a big problem as long as there are enough beds that you don't need to book. --LPfi (talk) 14:15, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- Somebody redirecting articles while I am working on them is frustrating, not a catastrophe, but merging the content requires some work and revering the merge is not always straight forward. Merging and redirecting, reverting, and again getting merged and redirected because of policy is a stupid way to collaborate. I'd very strongly advice not to merge if region or destination article has been worked on lately, and it thus seems likely the outline is going to be worked on in the foreseeable future. I'd also prefer keeping outlines without much content if the other destinations in the region have reasonable articles. One such outline is not that frustrating for a reader, it is trees consisting of mostly empty outlines that are the problem. --LPfi (talk) 14:09, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- The merger proposal process gives time for someone to say, "hey, I'm working on this - it will get better", in which case regular contributors will back down. The only time I'd merge without proposing it first is when an article will never qualify (e.g. a single site), or when the article has been untouched for a long time (as you suggested). Ground Zero (talk) 14:48, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- Somebody redirecting articles while I am working on them is frustrating, not a catastrophe, but merging the content requires some work and revering the merge is not always straight forward. Merging and redirecting, reverting, and again getting merged and redirected because of policy is a stupid way to collaborate. I'd very strongly advice not to merge if region or destination article has been worked on lately, and it thus seems likely the outline is going to be worked on in the foreseeable future. I'd also prefer keeping outlines without much content if the other destinations in the region have reasonable articles. One such outline is not that frustrating for a reader, it is trees consisting of mostly empty outlines that are the problem. --LPfi (talk) 14:09, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
(reset) How about this one for a new test: "Articles are for destinations — not individual attractions or establishments. Anything you can fit into a listing should not get its own article".
Maybe it would be a good idea to allow listings not only in the lowest articles in the hierarchy, but also in the layer immediately above (lowest region article) for listings in small towns/middle of nowhere that do not have an article yet and might have so little to offer that they may not need an article at all. I've suggested it before but people didn't think it was a good idea. How would this sound: if the destination doesn't have a minimum of (say) three attractions and travel-relevant businesses combined it should not get its own article and listings should added to the region article instead. If needed — say a big theme park opens there with all sorts of amenities, we can later create an article for the destination and move the listings there. --ϒpsilon (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- That sounds like a good idea. Happy new year, BTW. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:28, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- I like the idea of some bottom-level regions (presumably rural) having listings for tiny towns and villages that will never have enough content to stand on their own. If the region article does grow to a substantial size, we can split it at a later time just like we districtify huge cities. Gizza (roam) 21:02, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- The issue of having listings on bottom-level regions was discussed at length a couple of years ago, without resolution or consensus. Might be worth re-examining. –StellarD (talk) 21:15, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link StellarD. In the case of the Option 2 examples in Wikivoyage:Destination guides to rural areas, I would support creating new bottom-level article types called "island group" and "rural area". At the moment, we sometimes call these article cities (e.g. East Frisian Islands and Rural Montgomery County) while at other times regions (East Coast (Suriname) and Thousand Islands) which is inconsistent and confusing. It won't be appropriate in every situation as the wide range of examples in the discussion show but whenever it is suitable, I think calling them island group or rural area would make it clear that they are bottom level and can have listings. They will be the equivalent of districts for thinly populated spread out areas of the world. Gizza (roam) 22:05, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- There has been criticism from some (I can remember User:PsamatheM, but there have been others) that Wikivoyage is too city-oriented in its setup, and doesn't cover rural areas well enough, but what you propose could go towards relieving that. A mixture of city and rural entries is certainly what you'd expect in a Lonely Planet or Rough Guide book. I'm not saying we should ape them in every way, but they're successful for a reason. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:17, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think there is some truth to the criticism that Wikivoyage is too city-oriented and doesn't cover rural areas well enough. I'm not sure what the best solution is, but maybe DaGizza's suggestion would help. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:26, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't like the idea of listings in non-bottom-level articles. However, what could make a lot of sense would be to have a region with two children: The city and the remainder of the region, or x-number of rural subregions. I don't agree with insisting that each article have at least 3 attractions. Childs has one listing for "See and Do", with 5 sublistings. And Chiusure has one "See" listing, but it's spectacular and the village couldn't really logically be listed in any other article because it's sufficiently remote to be its own destination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- The existing policy has exceptions (that I think we should retain) that would cover Child's and Chiusure: "... when that information becomes too large and complex (more than 3-4 paragraphs) should a new article be considered...." The list of examples also demonstrates an intent to allow articles in these two circumstances. Having separate articles for them would be easy to defend in a merger discussion on the basis of the policy. Ground Zero (talk) 12:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't like the idea of listings in non-bottom-level articles. However, what could make a lot of sense would be to have a region with two children: The city and the remainder of the region, or x-number of rural subregions. I don't agree with insisting that each article have at least 3 attractions. Childs has one listing for "See and Do", with 5 sublistings. And Chiusure has one "See" listing, but it's spectacular and the village couldn't really logically be listed in any other article because it's sufficiently remote to be its own destination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think there is some truth to the criticism that Wikivoyage is too city-oriented and doesn't cover rural areas well enough. I'm not sure what the best solution is, but maybe DaGizza's suggestion would help. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:26, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- There has been criticism from some (I can remember User:PsamatheM, but there have been others) that Wikivoyage is too city-oriented in its setup, and doesn't cover rural areas well enough, but what you propose could go towards relieving that. A mixture of city and rural entries is certainly what you'd expect in a Lonely Planet or Rough Guide book. I'm not saying we should ape them in every way, but they're successful for a reason. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:17, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link StellarD. In the case of the Option 2 examples in Wikivoyage:Destination guides to rural areas, I would support creating new bottom-level article types called "island group" and "rural area". At the moment, we sometimes call these article cities (e.g. East Frisian Islands and Rural Montgomery County) while at other times regions (East Coast (Suriname) and Thousand Islands) which is inconsistent and confusing. It won't be appropriate in every situation as the wide range of examples in the discussion show but whenever it is suitable, I think calling them island group or rural area would make it clear that they are bottom level and can have listings. They will be the equivalent of districts for thinly populated spread out areas of the world. Gizza (roam) 22:05, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- The issue of having listings on bottom-level regions was discussed at length a couple of years ago, without resolution or consensus. Might be worth re-examining. –StellarD (talk) 21:15, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- I like the idea of some bottom-level regions (presumably rural) having listings for tiny towns and villages that will never have enough content to stand on their own. If the region article does grow to a substantial size, we can split it at a later time just like we districtify huge cities. Gizza (roam) 21:02, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
(reset indent) Re: Sleep TestI would agree that the "sleep test" could do more harm than good and could actually have negative consequences (e.g. somewhere that deserves a listing not getting one as it's merged into an already too long page for somewhere nearby that does happen to have a hotel. It all comes down to "judgement" (rather than a set rule) and different people will always make different judgements but the thing about borderline cases is that they are borderline so it's not such a big deal. Having "rules" and "policies" (even with "flexibility") can be counterproductive as there will always be some who regard it as their duty to enforce such rules on the basis that they are rules. The challenge is to achieve an appropriate level consistency so there needs to be something. The challenge is that different places around the world don't fit into set rigorous rules and policies - too much variability PsamatheM (talk) 11:36, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Re: Listings at higher levels The difficulty is that different places around the world don't always fit into a single structural policy. Too much variability so I think it sensible to allow listings in non-bottom level articles. It all depends on the particular place, how it is geographically organised in relation to things of relevance/interest to a traveller. I'd be in favour of greater freedom with the author (who knows the area) being questioned but those questioning NOT using "our policy is ..." to push for "listings only in bottom level articles". Defer/accept to local knowledge with the qualification that some contributors might not be aware of the consistency considerations but prioritise usefulness to the traveller. There will always be conflicting pressures to provide clear, useful, accessible, etc. content and the force the world into a single structural policy is unlikely to meet any of those aims. Unsigned comment by User:PsamatheM
- Thousand Islands is not a region article and has not been a region article since 2013. It is a vast bi-national rural area with a few villages (Marysville, Fineview, Stella - and including the latter is a stretch as it's on Lake Ontario), none of which have a thousand or more people. That said, I'd prefer that bottom-level destination articles be drawn in area so that one ends where the next begins, even if that means the 28' tall novelty architecture Big Apple (as the lone attraction in tiny Colborne, Cramhe Township, Ontario) is listed at Cobourg#Nearby -- which ends where Trenton (Ontario) begins. Yes, there are issues with certain things being taken too literally - like the section headers (is "Drink" nightlife, or is it somewhere to stick winery tours like Westmoreland (New Hampshire)#Drink?), the sleep test (do we assume that Cartwright (Labrador) is a city but stops being one the day the hotel burns to the ground?) and the concept of what constitutes "a city". In general, we size articles (and their geographic coverage area) so that the text is of reasonable length (as the print and mobile versions still matter) instead of following the official city limits. I'd prefer not to push listings into higher levels as that does encourage the condition where every hôtelier thinks that their tiny five-room motel absolutely belongs in United States of America#Sleep and it's just one more article which the voyager needs to print and carry-on as baggage. K7L (talk) 14:09, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think part of the issue is that our writership has historically skewed and still to an extent skews "First World" (in the actual 1950s definition, even: NATO and allies) and urban. Exhibit A: I am writing this in a train at more than 125 mph going from big city to at least moderately large city. It is thus only natural that we struggle somewhat with more rural areas and our setup is not the best for certain types of rural attractions. There have been several proposals to remedy this, all of them workable in principle, but none gaining all that much traction. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:50, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
So maybe this was done to provoke the conversation (or just me) but this is a good western example: Randolph (New York). Town appears to have restaurants and a few shops but closest hotels are in Salamanca (New York) and Jamestown (New York). As it stands is just annoying click for readers to an empty page (yes I know it could be expanded but past cases have not). Andre I know you don't want to hear about this {from you) again, but you started the conversation again. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:26, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- I wasn't suggesting allowing small motels in the United States article or any of that sorts, but explicitly listings in the layer immediately above. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:50, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, that struck me as a particularly absurd use of the 'slippery slope' fallacy. Surely the proposal to allow listings in bottom-level regions (especially for rural areas, or those areas otherwise lacking a large amount of tourism infrastructure) is better than having hundreds of near-empty city articles whose only purpose is to act as a vessel for one or two listings or a solitary routebox that can't be placed anywhere else? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:23, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Traveler100, if you had bothered to click "edit" and get a look at the <!-- hidden notes to myself --> that I'd embedded in the Randolph article, or if you had checked the article's edit history and looked at the edit summary I left, you would have seen there was plenty of content that I intended to fill in later - yes, including one of your allegedly nonexistent hotels, plus a couple of campgrounds to boot. I just got done doing that, and I even got the article up to Usable status. So instead of running with your baseless assumption that there's nothing to do or see in this town that I just created an article for, and using it as a pretext to unearth this beef that you and I had years ago, I wish that you would have instead deferred to my local expertise (I had earlier added Randolph to Cattaraugus County#Cities precisely because it would make a worthwhile article) and proven record as a valuable contributor to this site, and maybe just given me some time to develop the article before jumping down my throat. Sorry that I didn't add the content all at once, but I do have a life outside this site, you know. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:19, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- In the past few comments on this thread I'm seeing an excessive preoccupation with the reader experience, almost to the point of tunnel vision, and frankly I find that to be problematic. I think that at this stage of Wikivoyage's existence, the perspective of the editor, and in particular the newbie editor, is equally if not more important. Right now, the number one thing this site needs more of - even more than readers - is content. And the way to get more content is to make it as easy as possible for people to contribute. As I said above: for editors who are just starting to learn their way around the site, it's a lot easier to add listings or other material to a skeleton article than to de-merge an article that's been merged and redirected somewhere else. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the best way to ensure that no one ever adds information about a particular place is to redirect it to another article, which of course is a completely self-defeating thing to do if we want more content. And if readers are really all that annoyed when they come across a skeleton article (I have my doubts about that, but that's a whole other story), then let that serve as motivation for them to do something about it, and cross over from being a reader to being an editor, which we also need more of. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:58, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- And finally, mark me down as being in full support of Ypsilon's proposed solution. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:02, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- For the record, I also fully support Ypsilon's proposal. –StellarD (talk) 09:22, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Listings at region level for small settlements or attractions in rural locations sounds like a good solution. Also can add red-link to city list with text as alternative. Suggest have a review and additional input on Wikivoyage:Destination guides to rural areas. Can this be moved on from a draft proposal? --Traveler100 (talk) 11:28, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think it's a messy solution. I'd really rather have a separate city-level article for "Rural areas of [region name]" and put the listings there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:37, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Listings at region level for small settlements or attractions in rural locations sounds like a good solution. Also can add red-link to city list with text as alternative. Suggest have a review and additional input on Wikivoyage:Destination guides to rural areas. Can this be moved on from a draft proposal? --Traveler100 (talk) 11:28, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- For the record, I also fully support Ypsilon's proposal. –StellarD (talk) 09:22, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- And finally, mark me down as being in full support of Ypsilon's proposed solution. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:02, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- In the past few comments on this thread I'm seeing an excessive preoccupation with the reader experience, almost to the point of tunnel vision, and frankly I find that to be problematic. I think that at this stage of Wikivoyage's existence, the perspective of the editor, and in particular the newbie editor, is equally if not more important. Right now, the number one thing this site needs more of - even more than readers - is content. And the way to get more content is to make it as easy as possible for people to contribute. As I said above: for editors who are just starting to learn their way around the site, it's a lot easier to add listings or other material to a skeleton article than to de-merge an article that's been merged and redirected somewhere else. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the best way to ensure that no one ever adds information about a particular place is to redirect it to another article, which of course is a completely self-defeating thing to do if we want more content. And if readers are really all that annoyed when they come across a skeleton article (I have my doubts about that, but that's a whole other story), then let that serve as motivation for them to do something about it, and cross over from being a reader to being an editor, which we also need more of. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:58, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Traveler100, if you had bothered to click "edit" and get a look at the <!-- hidden notes to myself --> that I'd embedded in the Randolph article, or if you had checked the article's edit history and looked at the edit summary I left, you would have seen there was plenty of content that I intended to fill in later - yes, including one of your allegedly nonexistent hotels, plus a couple of campgrounds to boot. I just got done doing that, and I even got the article up to Usable status. So instead of running with your baseless assumption that there's nothing to do or see in this town that I just created an article for, and using it as a pretext to unearth this beef that you and I had years ago, I wish that you would have instead deferred to my local expertise (I had earlier added Randolph to Cattaraugus County#Cities precisely because it would make a worthwhile article) and proven record as a valuable contributor to this site, and maybe just given me some time to develop the article before jumping down my throat. Sorry that I didn't add the content all at once, but I do have a life outside this site, you know. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:19, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, that struck me as a particularly absurd use of the 'slippery slope' fallacy. Surely the proposal to allow listings in bottom-level regions (especially for rural areas, or those areas otherwise lacking a large amount of tourism infrastructure) is better than having hundreds of near-empty city articles whose only purpose is to act as a vessel for one or two listings or a solitary routebox that can't be placed anywhere else? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:23, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
So far, the main options seem to be:
- Replace tiny-town articles with articles about larger semi-rural regions
- If you want to write about something in tiny Mulberry, Kansas (population 520, and home to the state's smallest newspaper), then make an article on Area around Pittsburg, Kansas, and stick it in there.
- Allow listings for tiny-town/rural areas in the next layer up.
- Put the listings in Southeastern Kansas (or make another regional child of that region called Crawford County, Kansas, and put the listings in there).
I think that both of these could work. At the moment, in this example, people seem to be doing the second one.
In terms of the narrower question, maybe the "sleep test" could be usefully re-framed as a "36-hour test". The idea is that the test (usually) includes sleeping, but that the point is having a reason to be there beyond stopping off just long enough to sleep, on your way to your real destination. You could spend 36 hours in a large airport or any town with an amusement park, but you would probably not volunteer to spend 36 hours in Mulberry, even if it were possible to sleep there (which it's not, unless you have family and friends in town. The nearest lodging is a campground five miles north, and across the border). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing - I think the "36-hour test" is definitely a nonstarter. Childs - which, again, is a previous OtBP and current Starnom - would handily fail it. As for your list of main options, you're missing one: the status quo of tolerating skeleton articles unless they can be conclusively demonstrated to fail wiaa, which is the one I endorse. (It's true that I voiced support for Ypsilon's proposal above, but I don't see that as necessarily mutually exclusive with the status quo. If a skeleton article could have three travel-related listings, it should be left alone even if it doesn't currently have them; if not, the article likely doesn't fulfill the requirements of even the current version of wiaa.) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:01, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- I have to disagree with the notion of if a skeleton article could have three travel-related listings, it should be left alone. This will just lead to 100s if not 1000s of empty articles. Clicking through multiple links in a region to find little or no information is just frustrating. Listing all settlements in the world is a task for Wikivoyage not a travel site. If I am visiting an area I would prefer to just read through pages with at least 4 or 5 entries. Better to have an area article or list on the region page. Once there is enough information then create the article. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Andre, I think some people could spend a happy 36 hours in Childs: Start at 7:00 p.m. with dinner at Tillman's. Sleep at the Fair Haven Inn. Spend the day wandering around the museum complex. (The formal tour takes two hours, but that doesn't mean that someone couldn't spend longer there.) Pick up lunch from Crosby's. Eat dinner at Tillman's again. Sleep again. Leave at 7:00 a.m., 36 hours later.
- Now, whether we should have an article about a "town" that is actually just a cluster of buildings around one intersection inside Gaines, rather than an article that covers all of Gaines, is an open question, but I don't think it would necessarily fail a 36-hour test. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:32, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Again, can we all please stop looking at everything exclusively through the reader's eyes? Not to say that they're not important, but let's face it: at the present moment we don't have a very good product to offer the reader. So we need to focus on expanding and improving our content before we get into anything to do with attracting more readers. And that means we need to think about the editor experience more so than the reader experience.
- I have to disagree with the notion of if a skeleton article could have three travel-related listings, it should be left alone. This will just lead to 100s if not 1000s of empty articles. Clicking through multiple links in a region to find little or no information is just frustrating. Listing all settlements in the world is a task for Wikivoyage not a travel site. If I am visiting an area I would prefer to just read through pages with at least 4 or 5 entries. Better to have an area article or list on the region page. Once there is enough information then create the article. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Now I already brought up the point about how much easier it is for newbies to deal with skeleton articles than redirects, and the response has been crickets chirping. Let me rephrase what I said before, this time in terms of two hypothetical scenarios involving a newbie editor.
- HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO #1
- Newbie Editor X lives in Small Town Y. He hears about Wikivoyage and decides to see what improvements he might make to the article about his hometown. He types "Small Town Y" into the search box and presses Enter, and then up comes an empty skeleton article. Newbie Editor X knows about a few interesting things to see and do, restaurants, and hotels in his hometown, and it's easy enough to figure out how to add them to the article: just click "add listing" next to the section title. Within a few minutes, the article for Small Town Y has a few listings and is on its way to being Usable.
- HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO #2
- Newbie Editor X lives in Small Town Y. He hears about Wikivoyage and decides to see what improvements he might make to the article about his hometown. He types "Small Town Y" into the search box and presses Enter, but instead of Small Town Y's article, he somehow lands on the article about Larger Region Z. Now that's all fine and dandy, but there's nothing specifically about Small Town Y in the Larger Region Z article, and Newbie Editor X has a lot of things in mind that he'd like to tell people about. What he really wants to do - what he was trying to do all along - is to write an article that's only about Small Town Y. But how? Small Town Y is a redirect, of course, but Newbie Editor X doesn't know what that means. It's all Greek to him. He keeps typing "Small Town Y" into the search box over and over again, but somehow Larger Region Z keeps coming up. He eventually gets frustrated and leaves. The end.
- Now do you understand why skeleton articles are important?
- I guess the third hypothetical scenario would be Newbie finding that Small Town Y is a redlink (probably the most common situation for small towns outside the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand). Not that I support outright deletion of all skeletons, but from my experience of wikis most newbies will plunge forward and start the article from scratch. It will have the wrong formatting but that's fair enough since they're new. I wonder how many people were first drawn to Wikivoyage because of wanting to improve coverage of their hometown as opposed to their region (state/province/county) or nation, a destination where they don't live or a completely different article like a travel topic or phrasebook. Gizza (roam) 23:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- "I wonder how many people were first drawn to Wikivoyage because of wanting to improve coverage of their hometown" - I would say it's greater than the number who stumble across Wikivoyage in the course of looking for information on a vacation they're planning. We don't have the brand name recognition or Google search rank of a Lonely Planet or a Frommer's. As for the option of deleting all skeletons, I think the disadvantage of that is clear: in virtually every instance, those who plunge forward and forge articles out of redlinks end up creating stubs, which then have to be manually retrofitted into Template:Smallcity skeleton. With preexisting skeleton articles, that step is eliminated. I think having a few "annoying" (and are they, really?) skeleton articles in the interim is more than a fair tradeoff. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:31, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- I guess the third hypothetical scenario would be Newbie finding that Small Town Y is a redlink (probably the most common situation for small towns outside the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand). Not that I support outright deletion of all skeletons, but from my experience of wikis most newbies will plunge forward and start the article from scratch. It will have the wrong formatting but that's fair enough since they're new. I wonder how many people were first drawn to Wikivoyage because of wanting to improve coverage of their hometown as opposed to their region (state/province/county) or nation, a destination where they don't live or a completely different article like a travel topic or phrasebook. Gizza (roam) 23:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I agree that outlines serve this important role. My favorite example is Rock Hill, which I created as a fairly barebones outline, and a few months later it was expanded substantially by a new IP editor who went on to improve many other articles in the region.
- I think the suggestion of a 36-hour test (or some other variant—maybe a 24-hour test or even a 12-hour test if need be) seems feasible and might do a better job than the sleep test of capturing what makes a place interesting or important enough to merit an article. The fact that Childs only dubiously meets it is perhaps a sign that Childs is only dubiously big enough for an article—the article seems fine, but it's plausible that it could be covered perfectly well in a "rural area" article or something like that. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:28, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Also, a piece of my response to Traveler100 that I forgot to add: "This will just lead to 100s if not 1000s of empty articles" implies that, in hundreds if not thousands of cases, people will go to the trouble of creating article skeletons for small towns and then not bother to add information. I think this is a stretch. (Yes, Traveler100, I know you took issue in the past with me creating skeleton articles for the sole purpose of adding them to routeboxes. In some ways, you were right that it was a stupid thing to do and that's why I stopped doing it. That doesn't mean I think skeleton articles, even the ones I created, shouldn't exist. And also, I created 10, maybe 20 skeletons, not hundreds.) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:39, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Granger - I think Ypsilon's three-listing test is a better measure than any time-based threshold. By their very nature, some attractions simply require more time to take in than others, and I don't think that really correlates with their worthiness for travellers. In fact, speaking on behalf of countless people I spoke to in the course of my work in the hotel industry: those who don't have a high tolerance for tacky tourist schlock might very well find themselves bored at the end of 36 hours in Niagara Falls, and I certainly don't think there's an argument for that not passing wiaa. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone is saying that a place only merits an article if all travellers would want to spend 36 hours there—just that some travellers might plausibly want or need to spend 36 hours there. I've never been to Niagara Falls, but from what I've heard about it, I imagine it must meet that standard, or at the very least the weaker 12-hour standard I suggested! Certainly some attractions require more time than others, but if a town is so lacking in attractions that no visitor would want to spend more than a few hours there, how can there be enough to say to fill a whole article? —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:54, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think the majority of towns that would fail one test would also fail the other. I'm not saying it would be impossible to find a time limit that's a rough approximation of the threshold between worthy and unworthy articles; I just happen to think that when it comes to edge cases, number of listings is a better metric. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I guess the most important thing to remember is that any rule we come up with is just a rule of thumb, and there will always be edge cases and oddball destinations where we have to use our best judgment and make exceptions as needed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:19, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think the majority of towns that would fail one test would also fail the other. I'm not saying it would be impossible to find a time limit that's a rough approximation of the threshold between worthy and unworthy articles; I just happen to think that when it comes to edge cases, number of listings is a better metric. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone is saying that a place only merits an article if all travellers would want to spend 36 hours there—just that some travellers might plausibly want or need to spend 36 hours there. I've never been to Niagara Falls, but from what I've heard about it, I imagine it must meet that standard, or at the very least the weaker 12-hour standard I suggested! Certainly some attractions require more time than others, but if a town is so lacking in attractions that no visitor would want to spend more than a few hours there, how can there be enough to say to fill a whole article? —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:54, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Granger - I think Ypsilon's three-listing test is a better measure than any time-based threshold. By their very nature, some attractions simply require more time to take in than others, and I don't think that really correlates with their worthiness for travellers. In fact, speaking on behalf of countless people I spoke to in the course of my work in the hotel industry: those who don't have a high tolerance for tacky tourist schlock might very well find themselves bored at the end of 36 hours in Niagara Falls, and I certainly don't think there's an argument for that not passing wiaa. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Also, a piece of my response to Traveler100 that I forgot to add: "This will just lead to 100s if not 1000s of empty articles" implies that, in hundreds if not thousands of cases, people will go to the trouble of creating article skeletons for small towns and then not bother to add information. I think this is a stretch. (Yes, Traveler100, I know you took issue in the past with me creating skeleton articles for the sole purpose of adding them to routeboxes. In some ways, you were right that it was a stupid thing to do and that's why I stopped doing it. That doesn't mean I think skeleton articles, even the ones I created, shouldn't exist. And also, I created 10, maybe 20 skeletons, not hundreds.) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:39, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
I see a fair number of empty articles started by people who just seem to want other people to do the work. I think they make Wikivoyage look bad. I agree with Andre that Ypsilon's three-pronged test is a better way of managing this that a time-being rule that would be subjective. The existing exceptions should be maintained where a location has one or two really good and well-explained listings. Ground Zero (talk) 03:57, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Some thoughts I have on this discussion:
- I like the Can you sleep there? test as a good first question (not as an absolute rule), but I’m fine with a three-listing guideline that Ypsilon mentioned, or using it in combination with an hours test or other rules of thumb we agree on. When considering whether a small place should have its own article, be lumped in with another guide or form part of a “rural area”, I usually find a need to consider a number of factors beyond the sleep test before deciding how to proceed.
- I agree with Andre that empty or nearly empty skeletons shouldn’t be deleted if they could meet the test for wiaa for all the reasons he listed.
- I don’t really like listings in non-bottom level destinations but I think it’s OK as a measure of last resort when it's not clear how the listing should be handled (i.e., can't determine whether it should have its own article, be part of a rural area or included in a existing nearby guide). I find listings in region guides can overwhelm the See/Do/Sleep/etc sections and it gives me the impression the region is about the listings and not the important stuff in the cities that do have their own guides. I’ve also found it sometimes leads to listings creep where listings are taken from a bottom-level region and added to the next level up. It’s fixable but creates janitorial work to clean up. -Shaundd (talk) 05:55, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- finding a better way of encouraging new contributors is something we need to look at and I agree once a redirect is made it is not clear to a newbie how to create a city page. We need to think about a better way of doing this (maybe some sort of recreate button?). But there are already over 3000 city pages without listings, does this site benefit from more? --Traveler100 (talk) 06:58, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- I suppose Moldavia could be an example to think about. For readers, I think the current format is good, given our actual coverage, but is it ideal for newbie editors, either locals or tourists from abroad? Those would probably have info on places just mentioned (most redlinks have been unlinked) and places not even mentioned. I think creating a skeleton region subdivision with redlinks or skeletons for all article-worthy places is the last thing to do here, while encouraging creating and linking new guides also for those smaller places could work. The problem then is reaching the 9-threshold with small destinations without having intermediate ones even mentioned. The small ones may be so spread out that subregions would not help very much, meaning real work for some experienced editor. --LPfi (talk) 09:06, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Another example. Eltville] - has information on POIs in other villages in the area, namely Erbach, Hattenheim, Kiedrich and Walluf. Now all of these do have more than 3 possible listings (hotels, campsites, places to buy wine, ruins, hikes, restaurants, ....). In an ideal world we should put the effort in to create each of these pages and expand to all attractions in each. However it could be some time before this happens, so if we split this currently useful usable page we end up with 5 poor outlines with one or two listings in each. Is it not better to add to this page until the content is enough to start splitting into individual settlements? --Traveler100 (talk) 09:41, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- I suppose Moldavia could be an example to think about. For readers, I think the current format is good, given our actual coverage, but is it ideal for newbie editors, either locals or tourists from abroad? Those would probably have info on places just mentioned (most redlinks have been unlinked) and places not even mentioned. I think creating a skeleton region subdivision with redlinks or skeletons for all article-worthy places is the last thing to do here, while encouraging creating and linking new guides also for those smaller places could work. The problem then is reaching the 9-threshold with small destinations without having intermediate ones even mentioned. The small ones may be so spread out that subregions would not help very much, meaning real work for some experienced editor. --LPfi (talk) 09:06, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Regarding newbie editors and listings in rural areas (including sleep) and tiny places not deserving of articles, I’d like to share my own experience. When I first began editing here, Southeast Arizona (an area which I know very well) was the barest of outlines, and inexplicably a bottom-level region of another region (which really should be fixed, when I get around to it). I did not know how to create articles, nor did I know how to deal with the random skeleton articles for places which in my opinion did not warrant them. So I simply began filling out the city and region articles, placing listings where I saw fit. Later as I learned about this site’s regional hierarchy, the assertion by some others that rural regions should be classified as ‘city articles’ simply confused me (and to me still makes no sense).
- Now, after 4½ years of active editing, I’m still unsure of the best way to handle this region. Ikan Kekek’s proposal of having two parallel articles, one as a shell container for the cities, and another just for the rural listings, I cannot see working here. Perhaps to ease confusion I should add city marker listings to the dynamic map, so that both individual listings and population centers are shown on the same map. Some of the other rural regions highlighted in the discussion above are in more densely populated areas, so perhaps there IK's solution would work. I’m not sure this could be applied to every rural region across the globe, however, which is why I like Traveler100’s proposed amendment to the draft policy.
- My point is that I think there should be maximum flexibility to accommodate any potential newbie who may happen along and want to edit a given region but finds the imposed region structure nonsensical and then doesn’t know what to do with it and gives up. –StellarD (talk) 12:37, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Bottom articles such as city articles should still be the primary place to put information and if a newbie (or whoever) wants to put some effort into a new article about a small town, then (in the most cases) I'd say go for it. Even if they do not write much, the article shouldn't be merged or deleted without looking up the place in WP, on a map or satellite picture. Does it look physically possible that the city meets a low threshhold of e.g. three travel-related POIs? Or are we talking about a hamlet of 8 homes and a convenience store that nobody will ever be able to write a serious travel article about?
- Different destinations and POIs need different solutions. For instance POIs that aren't officially located in one city, but are in practice always accessed through it, it can be considered part of this city. "Lone places" in the middle of nowhere that cannot be easily tied to a certain city with an article are the ones I'd like to see in the region articles. If the aforementioned hamlet happens to have one (or two) attraction(s), the attraction(s) would also go in the region article.
- Then there's IMO also another aspect of rural listings, that StellarD just brought up. If we have a regional article about Region X, and under it some cities plus just one "Rural X" article that would geographically cover so much of its parent article that we would in practice have two articles about exactly the same area; one with and one without listings. Wouldn't it look sort of silly? This is why I'd rather have such listings in the regional article, having them look like Suriname's regions. BTW I also remember discussions about the lack of content in regional articles so this would to a small extent address this problem as well.
- On the other hand, if we get a ton of listings in a regional article (I imagine this will rarely happen), we can do what we always do with articles that have grown large — subdivide it into several rural articles and move the listings there. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:03, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
- Here's what I think will happen if we allow listings only for rural areas in region articles: (1) A lot of readers will think that's all there is in the region, not realizing that there are more listings in city articles. Yeah, even if we tell them so, some of them will miss the notice while skipping through the article. (2) We'll constantly have to police the article to remove listings for places in cities and towns that do have their own articles. (3) We'll have to explain why it's fair to exclude such listings, denying city listings equal billing in a regional article when they are very often more important attractions to someone visiting that region.
- The problem with maximum flexibility for editors is that it also means maximum work for patrollers. We've previously taken steps to create bright lines, such as the policies excluding non-primary external links, inline links to Wikipedia and links to all garden-variety tour agencies. This would be going in the other direction. Try it if you like, but be prepared to deal with the issues I lay out, and probably other ones I didn't think of. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:14, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
- I definitely agree with your predictions, Ikan Kekek. The question we should ask ourselves is whether such extra work for patrollers is justifiable by the improvements moving listings up the hierarchy would bring. Possibly not, as any extra patrol work by experienced editors is less time that those editors could be getting on with creating content, rather than managing other people's work. So if there is a move / consensus against the status quo (we're not there yet), then the city article-style 'rural district' articles, on the same level as city articles may be preferable. Either that or (throwing yet another option into the ring), having 'city plus' articles for rural areas, whereby a city / town and its surrounding countryside and villages are included in one article; this is something we already do to an extent.
- As a point of transparency, I am always going to be in favour of pooling our content into fewer and better articles where possible (more meat and less bone or fat), to create an overall more complete-looking guide. In opposition to the idea that skeleton articles encourage new editors, while I don't doubt that does happen at times, it is usually the case that articles created as outlines stay that way for years and years, because we don't have enough editors such that we can rely on every country / region / city in the world having someone who knows the place and who is passionate about writing a great up-to-date article. A travel guide that has far fewer stubs and outlines, and more guides and stars, will always attract more readers, and those readers will be more likely to become editors, because success breeds success. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:52, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Wikivoyage is littered with empty articles that diminish the traveller's experience here. Special:ShortPages is filled with pages that tell the reader little more than "A is a village in B". Take a look at the 500th shortest article, Gračanica (Bosnia and Herzegovina). It says: "Gračanica is in Northeastern Bosnia, located east of Doboj and west of Tuzla." The article has been sitting around for five years now waiting for useful information to be added. The 1000th shortest article, Waynesburg (Pennsylvania), says "Waynesburg is a borough in Pennsylvania." It has been waiting for seven years for anything substantive to be added, and hasn't even been touched for the last 4½ years. And it's not some remote village in India or Siberia, it's in the United States, 50 miles (80 km) south of Pittsburgh.
Not all of the articles in the bottom 1000 are that sparse, but there are hundreds. (Maybe 10-15% are regional articles that contain links to only a few articles, but are useful for navigation.
I don't buy the conjecture that we are going to get many editors who start by editing their home towns and then become faithful contributors. It happens, but I think that most people who edit regularly do so because they are travellers who enjoy reading and writing about travel. I support continuing to put the traveller first. Ground Zero (talk) 18:41, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Copying my comment from Talk:Chora (Greece)#Merger? that's also apropos here:
- "I think one element that's been missing from the ongoing policy discussion at the pub is the fact that getting an article to a place where its existence can be justified actually requires very little time and effort. Estimating liberally, it took me about half an hour of work to elevate Randolph (New York) from non-existent to Usable, and that's a situation where I took special care to craft good prose and be as complete as possible. Even if you multiply that by four villages on Alonissos, you still have a very easy fix that, more importantly, adds content - and I don't think there's any better way to put the traveller first [cf. Ground Zero's remarks above] than by doing that. In my opinion, no one has any business adding a merge tag to an article without at least trying to find content to add first."
- -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:28, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- We have the benefit of hindsight here. We know that although these articles have been around for years (Chora (Greece) has been around for almost a decade with almost nothing of value for the reader), no-one has turned them into useful articles. I also have been turning stubs into useful articles (Laguna San Rafael National Park, Campobello Island and Lane Cove National Park recently), but clearly we do hot have editors to deal with the thousand (?) empty articles that make Wikivoyage look like one of those business listing sites that just gather basic info and ask people to write reviews. Of course it is dead easy for anyone who opposes a merger to spend a few minutes to add a few listings to an article to shut down the merger discussion. Ground Zero (talk) 20:12, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly. 2 years ago I started adding Sleep and See listings to articles that did not have them. Have done a few hundred in the United Kingdom and Germany and a few other places too. As of today only 6526 city articles left to do. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- The point that is being made is that we shouldn't be overeager to propose merging everything. If it's dead easy to add a few listings to an article, whoever would propose a non-obvious merger should do that instead of trying to crusade for a merger, not leave it up to others. The time it takes you to discuss a merger or even do one without seeking a consensus - which you shouldn't do unless it's really obvious (e.g., a district guide for an otherwise undistricted city) - could be spent adding content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Wiaa starts off by identifying two principles, one of which is "Articles should be relatively self-sufficient so that travellers can print them out, put them in their back pocket, and use them for travelling around." The "A is a town in B" articles violate this fundamental principle. The old approach of proposing and discussing mergers has ensured that Wikivoyage is littered with non-articles. I would be more comfortable with having fewer mergers if we could agree that the empty stub articles can be redirected without discussion. Then we could focus on improving articles like Chora. And, as I've noted, those opposed to mergers can easily end the discussions by making the articles worth keeping instead of arguing on talk pages. It works both ways. Ground Zero (talk) 22:43, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- So can you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:57, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think some of us in this discussion are holding this site to an impossible standard. On any wiki, even huge ones like en:wp with behemoth populations of active editors, the work will by nature never be done. There will always be stubs, outlines, or whatever the local term for incomplete articles may be - that's just the nature of the wiki beast.
- So can you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:57, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Wiaa starts off by identifying two principles, one of which is "Articles should be relatively self-sufficient so that travellers can print them out, put them in their back pocket, and use them for travelling around." The "A is a town in B" articles violate this fundamental principle. The old approach of proposing and discussing mergers has ensured that Wikivoyage is littered with non-articles. I would be more comfortable with having fewer mergers if we could agree that the empty stub articles can be redirected without discussion. Then we could focus on improving articles like Chora. And, as I've noted, those opposed to mergers can easily end the discussions by making the articles worth keeping instead of arguing on talk pages. It works both ways. Ground Zero (talk) 22:43, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- The point that is being made is that we shouldn't be overeager to propose merging everything. If it's dead easy to add a few listings to an article, whoever would propose a non-obvious merger should do that instead of trying to crusade for a merger, not leave it up to others. The time it takes you to discuss a merger or even do one without seeking a consensus - which you shouldn't do unless it's really obvious (e.g., a district guide for an otherwise undistricted city) - could be spent adding content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly. 2 years ago I started adding Sleep and See listings to articles that did not have them. Have done a few hundred in the United Kingdom and Germany and a few other places too. As of today only 6526 city articles left to do. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- We have the benefit of hindsight here. We know that although these articles have been around for years (Chora (Greece) has been around for almost a decade with almost nothing of value for the reader), no-one has turned them into useful articles. I also have been turning stubs into useful articles (Laguna San Rafael National Park, Campobello Island and Lane Cove National Park recently), but clearly we do hot have editors to deal with the thousand (?) empty articles that make Wikivoyage look like one of those business listing sites that just gather basic info and ask people to write reviews. Of course it is dead easy for anyone who opposes a merger to spend a few minutes to add a few listings to an article to shut down the merger discussion. Ground Zero (talk) 20:12, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- And, burying the lede a little bit here: though many people in this conversation are talking about how "readers are put off by seeing empty articles", "it makes them doubt the quality of our content", etc., I have yet to see any non-anecdotal evidence of this. In fact, the available evidence suggests the opposite: readership is growing, slowly but steadily, and the gap in Alexa rankings between us and Wikitravel is closing rapidly. Specifically, I would have to ask if the average reader even notices the abundance of skeleton articles. I think we can assume a correlation between reader traffic on a given page and editor traffic, and many of these skeleton articles don't have so much as a "hey, where can I find actual information about this place" on their talk pages. Other than those of us who seek them out intentionally, who exactly is being bothered by these skeleton articles? The one person every six days, on average, who stumbles across an article like Chora (Greece)? (And how many of those are actually people looking for information as opposed to editors clicking around the site idly, people who typed an incorrect search term, etc.?)
- Perhaps someday there'll be a concerted effort, on the part of more than one editor working alone, to address this issue - it might make for a good cotm. But even if not, I think that even if only a tiny minority of skeleton articles ever see a meaningful amount of content added to them, the benefit of that still outweighs the drawback of the rest remaining skeleton articles indefinitely, especially if no one ever notices them anyway.
- Your points are well taken. To make a different point, I'd like to remind everyone that there is a status quo bias on this site, so those crusading to merge loads of articles have the burden of explaining why in each case and gaining a consensus. "Those of you who object to the crusade can add listings, thereby proving a merge is unwarranted" is not Wikivoyage policy or practice. So since it takes time to discuss and do mergers, I would again suggest that the amount of time devoted to this should be taken into consideration when deciding whether a particular merge proposal is important enough to make. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) I don't mind near empty articles if there was a better way to encourage readers to add more content. We do have the outline template at the bottom requesting the reader to plunge forward and help it grow but on empty articles with the skeleton headings, the reader may not see that template unless they scroll or slide down. On Wikipedia stubs, you would see a similar template after 2 or 3 lines so it much more prominent. But I agree that Wikivoyage is growing anyway and am not too fussed if we either take an inclusionist or mergist approach. Gizza (roam) 23:29, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Article status
I'd be happy for all the article statuses to be moved to the top of the article if that could help in any way. I'm not sure how much work that would take - if there's a consensus behind this, would it be a simple thing for a bot to be programmed to do? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:30, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't agree with putting our business (article status) ahead of the information the reader is looking for. Ground Zero (talk) 00:36, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Me neither. I suppose most likely contributors know what a wiki is anyway, and there are enough meaningless sites asking for contributions that a mere notice does not help. And if the notices are important, we should figure out what pages to link to – I think they are very unhelpful as of now. Why do they not explain what is missing? (it took me ages to learn how to find the status descriptions, and often tried to get at them via those links: very frustrating).
- The current links explain our geographical hierarchy, discuss the merits and dismerits of outlines, present the templates, tell where to stick available info (first somewhat useful link for the one wanting to improve the outline), tell you may edit, and then how editing works technically. Does any of those present the info a newbie with knowledge about the destination needs, in a way that maximizes probability of engagement?
Moving event articles into project space when they are over
@AlasdairW:, @DaGizza:, @Ikan Kekek:, @K7L:, @LPfi:, @ThunderingTyphoons!:,
In this discussion, there was a proposal that articles for events that are over should be moved from the article space to the project space, e.g., London 2012 games would be moved to Wikivoyage:Past events/London 2012.
It is useful to keep these articles to use as a base for articles about similar events, and there is going to be done interest in historical events. But once the event is over,nthere generally isn't anyone interested in updating the verb tenses and cleaning up the article to turn it into a historical record. For example, the article linked above says,
- "The... Summer Olympic Games of 2012, will based in London, with selected events held throughout the United Kingdom. The official 16 days of the games will be July 27 through August 12, though some events will begin to occur before the official opening ceremonies."
Re-writing the article to make it a historical record wouldn't be a good use of anyone's time. While there is a banner at the top of the article that says "This event has closed and is no longer open to the public", let's face it, the article doesn't mean the standard of a good article anymore.
I propose to amend WV:WIAA in two places:
- Under "What does not get its own article?", add the bold italic word in the following:
- Festivals or events, except upcoming large-scale international events such as the Formula One or the Olympic Games.
- Under "Exceptions", add the bold italic word in the following:
- Upcoming huge international events like the Olympic Games or the soccer/football World Cup (as travel topics)
- ... but not purely-regional events such as the Windsor–Detroit International Freedom Festival, which are listed at city level. (After an exceptional event is finished, the article should be moved to Wikivoyage:Past events/Name of event.)
- Upcoming huge international events like the Olympic Games or the soccer/football World Cup (as travel topics)
Comments? Ground Zero (talk) 01:17, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, but couldn't we use a word like "future" in one place and "upcoming" in another to make it sound a little more varied? Selfie City (talk) 01:20, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think that using the same term reduces the room for confusion. The two statements above do not appear anywhere close to each other in the policy, so I don't think we need to vary the language for the sake of reader interest. Ground Zero (talk) 01:23, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- What about large annual recurring events, such as Burning Man? We seem to sidestep this by redirecting the event as a geographical place, but once the event packs up for the year there's nothing at that physical spot but empty desert. K7L (talk) 02:43, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- Since the next edition of an annual event would always be upcoming, there would be no need to move the article into project space. Ground Zero (talk) 03:08, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- What about large annual recurring events, such as Burning Man? We seem to sidestep this by redirecting the event as a geographical place, but once the event packs up for the year there's nothing at that physical spot but empty desert. K7L (talk) 02:43, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think that using the same term reduces the room for confusion. The two statements above do not appear anywhere close to each other in the policy, so I don't think we need to vary the language for the sake of reader interest. Ground Zero (talk) 01:23, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- Good proposal, IMO. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:24, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, it seems like a good idea to me. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:22, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- Me too. Pashley (talk) 12:01, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- If we do move the articles, then we must be sure to update the links to the articles on Wikipedia, as well as any internal links we have here. I think that it is immediately obvious to a reader that London 2012 is about a past event, so I don't see the need, but I am not opposed to the idea of moving the pages. Would having them as Past events/Name of event rather than Wikivoyage:Past events/Name of event make it easier for readers to find the article, which they may want to do after they get home from the event. AlasdairW (talk) 22:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think it would be very easy to find the article since London 2012 would be a redirect to Wikivoyage:Past events/London 2012. Of course links would have to be updated too. It would take some time, but could be done. Ground Zero (talk) 00:24, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
- As long as we keep the redirect, updating the links wouldn't be essential (though it would still be nice to do, I guess). —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:27, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
For some reason, I didn't get a notification for this via email or through the alerts up top, but I do support the proposal. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:57, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Done. I took the liberty of adding words about leaving a redirect behind. Ground Zero (talk) 16:15, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- I believe that I have moved all of the past events according to the policy, with redirect left behind and in-article links fixed. If anyone knows of an article I've missed, please post it here. Ground Zero (talk) 20:06, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Dive sites, why not hiking, cycling routes?
I don't want this to be another long debate, although this could potentially be a more important issue than the Genesis 1:3 quote or keeping/deleting the Esperanto phrasebook: I do not know how dive sites got to be on Wikivoyage. They're not quite like anything else on Wikivoyage. However, I've been thinking recently about why Wikivoyage hasn't reached the heights of Wikipedia. There are several notable reasons.
- First, Wikivoyage and Wikitravel have for several years now been operating like competitors, and Wikitravel has managed to steal a lot of potential Wikivoyage readers and users. Having both of these competing, along with Tripadvisor and other travel guides, have stopped Wikivoyage from becoming the world's main travel guide in the same way that Wikipedia has become the world's main encyclopedia. Unfortunately, there's not a lot we can do about this issue.
- Second, we lack content in many articles. Although major city articles are mostly well-developed and have been a Wikivoyage success, there are probably thousands of Wikivoyage destinations that are outlines - still. It would take a lot more Wikivoyage editors and years of work to change this, so dealing with this issue isn't very practical at the moment (unless we stopped debating, which is obviously not going to stop in real life - just check out #Let's improve the articles, not argue over minor issues to see why).
- Third, practically every article on Wikivoyage has an article on the bigger site, Wikipedia, with the same name. Pretty much ever Wikivoyage destination is also a Wikipedia article. So why would people come here when there's a much more well-known site that covers just as much and more (think Wikipedia's biographies and other articles). However, we could deal with the issues of the second point: create some more specific destination articles so we could go more in-depth about travel than Wikipedia does. For example, create hiking trail guides that have a similar page layout to diving sites. The same could be done with cycling routes. I know most of these article possibilities don't pass the sleep test, but dive sites don't either - people don't sleep underwater while scuba diving. This one could be expanded and really improve the usefulness of Wikivoyage.
Finally, I'd like to say that if most people don't agree about this, I'm not going to continually debate it because improving articles should the priority. However, if we added these types of travel guides, it would give us more opportunity to expand articles and make Wikivoyage just as good as Wikipedia. Selfie City (talk) 00:32, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Go ahead. They would be Itinerary articles. I believe we do already have some. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:35, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- I just want to clarify first, though, that I'm here referring to (for example), a three-mile trail in a park; I'm not referring to the Appalachian Trail. What I'm more talking about is perhaps a guide to a three- or four-mile trail, with some pictures of the trail and a description of where it goes, or something like that. Selfie City (talk) 00:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think in some cases that can make sense. Land Art Trail on Mt. Učka is one example of an itinerary article about a shorter hike. Sometimes a simple route can be incorporated into another article instead, as in Florianopolis#Do. Another possibility is writing a travel topic article with information about multiple hikes in a particular area, like Hiking around Ljubljana. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:55, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'd say more on hiking or cycle routes is a fine idea & anyone so inclined should go ahead & write about them.
- Some existing itineraries like Karakoram Highway say something about cycling that could be much expanded. Pashley (talk) 01:48, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- We have a principle established in Wikivoyage:What is an article? that could be extended:
- "Cases where exceptions are made include attractions, sites, or events that are... so large and complex that the information about them would overload the city article. A good rule of thumb is that information about attractions, sites, events, and transportation should always be initially placed into an existing article, and only when that information becomes too large and complex (more than 3-4 paragraphs) should a new article be considered."
- I think that a hiking or cycling route for which we have more than 3-4 paragraphs in an article could be broken out into its own article. What we want to avoid is a bunch of articles that have no more content than "The Waterfront Route is a 3-mile-long cycling route in Springfield." Ground Zero (talk) 02:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- We have a principle established in Wikivoyage:What is an article? that could be extended:
- Speaking of which, we could perhaps have an article about Rail Trails, where abandoned railway lines are converted for pedestrian or cycling use. When I lived in Australia, there was a nice one that ran through Clare Valley, and there is also the Coast to Vines Rail Trail. I've never completed them, but if anyone here is a cycling enthusiast and has done so, please plunge forward. The dog2 (talk) 02:18, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- We do have Hiking and Cycling articles but yes we could have many more. A good example of a short distance one is Ad's Path. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:25, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- In reference to the first point made, it is not that WT steals readers or contributors from WV, it is that Google treats WV as a fork of WT and whenever there is identical or similar content between the sites, we are the ones that get punished, always. From personal experience, any WV article which is 90% or more identical with the WT equivalent cannot be found on Google at all. And there are still many articles (I suspect thousands) which have not had a non-minor, non-bot edit in over 5 years. These articles are virtually ghosts on the internet and can only be seen by a link or search within Wikivoyage (or a sister wiki). And articles with an overlap of less than 90% but still quite high will at best appear on the 3rd or 4th page of search results. This severely hampers organic growth. And it's worse for some countries than others. Gizza (roam) 07:41, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- I have cycled on some rail trails. They're great. None of the ones I cycled on are probably long enough to merit their own article, but rail trails certainly can be covered in itinerary articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- One example cycle path that could be expanded is Little Miami Bike Trail. --Traveler100 (talk) 10:02, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- I have cycled on some rail trails. They're great. None of the ones I cycled on are probably long enough to merit their own article, but rail trails certainly can be covered in itinerary articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- In reference to the first point made, it is not that WT steals readers or contributors from WV, it is that Google treats WV as a fork of WT and whenever there is identical or similar content between the sites, we are the ones that get punished, always. From personal experience, any WV article which is 90% or more identical with the WT equivalent cannot be found on Google at all. And there are still many articles (I suspect thousands) which have not had a non-minor, non-bot edit in over 5 years. These articles are virtually ghosts on the internet and can only be seen by a link or search within Wikivoyage (or a sister wiki). And articles with an overlap of less than 90% but still quite high will at best appear on the 3rd or 4th page of search results. This severely hampers organic growth. And it's worse for some countries than others. Gizza (roam) 07:41, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- We do have Hiking and Cycling articles but yes we could have many more. A good example of a short distance one is Ad's Path. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:25, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Speaking of which, we could perhaps have an article about Rail Trails, where abandoned railway lines are converted for pedestrian or cycling use. When I lived in Australia, there was a nice one that ran through Clare Valley, and there is also the Coast to Vines Rail Trail. I've never completed them, but if anyone here is a cycling enthusiast and has done so, please plunge forward. The dog2 (talk) 02:18, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
A lot of out walking itineraries are multiple day tracks like Milford Track, but there are some shorter ones, for example:
- Ben Nevis and Ledge Route and the Carn Mor Dearg Arete (Ben Nevis) are both day hikes up the UK's highest mountain.
- Hikes in the Lake District are two half-day walks in England.
- London South Bank Walk is a 2 hour city walk.
- A seaside stroll in Helsinki is a half day walk.
In the past there has been some negative comments on itineraries being "too personal", which did result in a number of itineraries being deleted. I think that we could clarify what are "personal" itineraries - whilst it is obvious that "stopped here to visit granny" is personal, it is not clear that one selection of a set of paths in the woods is. AlasdairW (talk) 23:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- For point 3 in the original post, of course WP is better known than WV. We should be taking advantage of that as much as possible by ensuring that there are plenty of WP->WV links. Pashley (talk) 02:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your input, everyone. I've just done a couple articles in the Tri-Valley area with hiking routes in mind: Hiking in the East Bay and the Ohlone Trail itinerary. I'm also just about to work on a shorter hiking itinerary. This is an area I know well, but I can't do these types of itineraries for every hike in the world. It would be great if others could work on hiking itineraries for areas they know, so we can really expand our Wikivoyage hiking itineraries. Selfie City (talk) 01:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
- What would be really useful for me to see is how bikeable different places are. Information like "this highway has no shoulder, heavy motor traffic, and hundreds of roadside memorial crosses on it" is very useful to me. I don't know WikiVoyage that great, but I know biking. So some of this may be more relevant than other bits, but that's my context. Some traits off the top of my head that are worth considering for the voyager-by-bike:
- - How many people walk/bike/etc on this road/around here?
- - Will many drivers honk at you?
- - Do the drivers give you room when they pass?
- - Is there a narrow shoulder/wide shoulder/painted barrier/painted buffered barrier/physical barrier between cars and bikes?
- - Could a family with small children take this route?
- - Is there a sidewalk for pedestrians?
- - What's the safest "getting there" route?
- - Any local riding norms? Take the lane vs hug the side of the road, etc?
- - How many roadside memorials will you see if you take this route? 0? 1? 2-5? 5-20? hundreds?
- - Is this a recreational route, transportation-only, or both?
- - Can I take the most direct route, or is there another, less-direct route I should know about?
- - Are there any frontage roads I should know about?
- - Are there lots of cars or not lots of cars?
- - How's the visibility?
- - Is it legal to bike on this road?
- - How hard is it to find camping (legit? side-of-road?) in this area when you're traveling no more than 20-50 miles per day?
- - Why do all the bloggers take this route, and nobody is taking this other seemingly-obvious route?
- - Is the route paved or unpaved? If unpaved, how unpaved? Do you need fat tires or will a standard bike make it through?
- - Are there any weather conditions or dangerous weather seasons (seasonal heat/snow/fire/fog/hurricanes/tornadoes/etc) bicyclists should know about?
- 172.58.19.12 18:14, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- I hope you don't mind that I moved your post, as the most recent post is normally at the end of the thread, and people will look for it there. I think this kind of information is great (with the one exception that we don't cover bloggers on this site, per what not to link to), but what I also think is that if you're covering that much information for a single route, it's probably best to take the next step and create an itinerary article about it. Please have a look at Wikivoyage:Itineraries (the "how-to" page on how to create an itinerary) and Itineraries, a page from which you can see lists of all itineraries within different continents and between continents. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:45, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- Some of this information can also fit By bike in country, region and city articles, both in Get in and Get around. E.g. in Finland#By bicycle 2:
- Most Finnish cities have good bike paths especially outside the centres [...] Farther from cities, where the bike paths end, not all major roads allow safe biking. You can often find suitable quiet routes, but sometimes this requires an effort. Locals often drive quite fast on low-traffic gravel roads; be alert and keep to the right. There are cyclists' maps for many areas.
- Some of this information can also fit By bike in country, region and city articles, both in Get in and Get around. E.g. in Finland#By bicycle 2:
- The roads are generally paved well, although gravel roads are sometimes unavoidable. As long as you don't go off-road, you will not need suspension or grooved tyres.
- Beware that a good bike path can end abruptly and force you out among the cars; the bike network building efforts are not too well coordinated. Also at road works, directions for cyclists are often neglected.
- (and a few paragraphs more on traffic rules, hiring bikes, taking bikes on public transport, climate, terrain etc.)
- There is a problematic middle ground, where circumstances vary from road to road in irregular patterns and you wouldn't want to describe every road. You can cover a few important routes in Get in if you can do it in a few sentences, but if the best route is difficult to navigate, you'd really need an itinerary article.
- I made a try at describing a biking route in E8 through Finland and Norway#By bike (much of it is narrow-shoulder highway, but the former highway is left as local roads, or other roads can be used, and there are cycleways at some stretches).
- –LPfi (talk) 10:45, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
Does the sleep test really apply to remote destinations?
This discussion has been evolving in Talk:Antarctica. Of course, Antarctica is a remote destination, and has many bases that should or should not be articles, but my main intent here is point out that, around the world there are extremely remote destinations where the whole point of visiting them is survival — how to get food, where to sleep, etc. Most people don't go on these types of vacations, but I'm sure there are some people that do.
For an example, let's take a fairly well–supported OtBP nomination, Guadalupe Island. There are no hotels on this island, almost definitely, and none are listed under the article's sleep section. The article instead suggests alternatives; it says that "you will have to rely on getting a room from one of the residents" and "[a]nother option would be to camp on the island". Should Guadalupe Island be turned into a redirect just because there are no obvious sleep options? A more than 23,000-byte guide article gone to waste?
The same is probably also true with a lot of the Arctic. A lot of these places don't strictly follow the wiaa guidelines, but they need to be included so Wikivoyage doesn't have "gaps" geographically, if you want to call them that. The point is this: some travelers/tourists will enjoy the act of getting to the destination, finding a way to sleep there, and finding a way to get back. Since the traveler comes first, we should serve those tourists too. Therefore, I think the sleep test should perhaps be reconsidered when it comes to certain places, like research stations in Antarctica. Selfie City (talk) 17:56, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- The key point not to forget is this is a travel site, not a geography site. Notability is an argument for a Wikipedia page. Maybe best though to keep this discussion in one place at Talk:Antarctica#Articles for individual bases--Traveler100 (talk) 18:11, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think the discussion on whether to have articles for individual bases is separate for how to reinterpret or maybe change the sleep test for remote places in general. I have also heard people define the sleep test as "you can't sleep in a museum" and hence not the question of whether there are hotels and so on relevant but the question whether one can pitch a tent there or the likes... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:16, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- I don't know about tent-pitching rules in Antarctica, though. I wish I knew. Aha — the answer. Selfie City (talk) 18:18, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- In future, though, I somewhat agree with Traveler100 — Antarctica talk ought to stay on Talk:Antarctica. However, if this is being covered as a wider issue including round-the-world destinations, it does belong here. Selfie City (talk) 18:19, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- I have understood that if you can pitch your tent there (possibly after getting a permit), and visitors do, then the destination passes the sleep test. No problem with that. On the other hand, you do not get an article on every block with a hotel, neither on every wood where you could pitch your tent. In remote areas, where hospitality or your tent are the main options, the split into separate articles simply has to be decided on other factors. --LPfi (talk) 19:26, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- If we have articles on scientific stations then there are other places that could have an article and contain more content; what about the accommodation and shops in Ramstein airbase or the restaurants and coffee shops in GM's Detroit facility or the accommodation and work options at High Desert State Prison Nevada. All more lightly to be visited by readers. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- I believe very few individual bases have enough to offer visitors to merit a whole article for itself. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:47, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- If we have articles on scientific stations then there are other places that could have an article and contain more content; what about the accommodation and shops in Ramstein airbase or the restaurants and coffee shops in GM's Detroit facility or the accommodation and work options at High Desert State Prison Nevada. All more lightly to be visited by readers. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- I have understood that if you can pitch your tent there (possibly after getting a permit), and visitors do, then the destination passes the sleep test. No problem with that. On the other hand, you do not get an article on every block with a hotel, neither on every wood where you could pitch your tent. In remote areas, where hospitality or your tent are the main options, the split into separate articles simply has to be decided on other factors. --LPfi (talk) 19:26, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- In future, though, I somewhat agree with Traveler100 — Antarctica talk ought to stay on Talk:Antarctica. However, if this is being covered as a wider issue including round-the-world destinations, it does belong here. Selfie City (talk) 18:19, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- I don't know about tent-pitching rules in Antarctica, though. I wish I knew. Aha — the answer. Selfie City (talk) 18:18, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think the discussion on whether to have articles for individual bases is separate for how to reinterpret or maybe change the sleep test for remote places in general. I have also heard people define the sleep test as "you can't sleep in a museum" and hence not the question of whether there are hotels and so on relevant but the question whether one can pitch a tent there or the likes... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:16, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Right, ϒpsilon. For example, summer-only bases wouldn't be included, and only the largest bases could do with such an article. I think Port Lockroy, McMurdo, Villa Las Estrellas, Esperanza Base, and a few other bases in Antarctica deserve articles. Normally Artigas would be a no, but WP has a lot of very useful information about getting to the place and what's there (although it's not well-sourced). I don't think Vostok, though, would make it. Selfie City (talk) 20:09, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Spanish WP was extraordinarily helpful when it came to Villa las Estrellas and Esperanza Base Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:17, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
What is the point of having articles like this one?
In my opinion, the article is too small. Is this even a place of interest to tourists? I thought it was decided that the English Wikivoyage would only have articles of places that are of interest to travelers and not have articles about any place just because it is on the map. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 14:19, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for pointing out such an article exists. If this place passes the sleep test, hopefully someone can expand it — either through someone who has been there or someone who is willing to do research about the place. Selfie City (talk) 14:30, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- Instead of complaining, you could just do something about it. Either expand the article if there's something to add, or merge it to a nearby place / the next level up in the hierarchy. If you think this is a unique case, let me disabuse you; there are plenty of outline articles like this on English Wikivoyage. They don't all need a pub debate. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:40, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- What harm is it doing? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- Or, what harm was it doing. ThunderingTyphoons! redirected it to Central Tennessee. I think this did have article potential, so I'm not sure about redirecting. Selfie City (talk) 16:10, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- If you can find a single thing to see or do there, and put that information in what was a completely empty article, along with the single possible sleep listing (a Hampton Inn, I think), and somewhere to get food, then by all means reinstate it. But a Google search for "things to do in White House, TN" came up with absolutely zilch. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:13, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- Made a disambiguation page to include a well-known destination known by the same name. /Yvwv (talk) 16:15, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- If you can find a single thing to see or do there, and put that information in what was a completely empty article, along with the single possible sleep listing (a Hampton Inn, I think), and somewhere to get food, then by all means reinstate it. But a Google search for "things to do in White House, TN" came up with absolutely zilch. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:13, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
According to TripAdvisor, there are 6 hotels in White House. Selfie City (talk) 16:22, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- I think the disambiguation page should be restored & a link added to it for Casablanca, which is "white house" in Spanish.
- As for " I thought it was decided that the English Wikivoyage would only have articles of places that are of interest to travelers and not have articles about any place just because it is on the map", that does more-or-less hold for actual articles but it is very common to have redirects for lesser places. Pashley (talk) 16:29, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- 6 hotels and what else? The sleep test can only apply if there's a reason for travellers to spend the night somewhere. The disambiguation solution is perfect. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:31, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- I did a bit of looking around, and AFAICT the best reason to go to White House is if you can't find a hotel room in Hendersonville (Tennessee). White House has a population of about 11,000 (and booming), but I couldn't find much to do in the city. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:15, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
- 6 hotels and what else? The sleep test can only apply if there's a reason for travellers to spend the night somewhere. The disambiguation solution is perfect. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:31, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Are travel topics about specific computer games in scope?
I know we have a wide scope when it comes to travel topics, but I'm not sure about the travel implications of specific games such as Minecraft tourism and Sid_Meier's_Civilization_tourism. There are some conferences held around these games, but shouldn't this be under Video_game_tourism (currently a redirect to Fiction tourism ? Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:30, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- "Are travel topics about specific computer games in scope?" - Yes, I think so, just like any other fiction tourism. However, I don't see the value or travel focus of the two new stubs you've linked.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:03, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- See Oregon Trail, which is as much about the 1980s-era educational computer game as about the actual real-life trail. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- Sure, a computer game can represent a valid fiction or non-fiction subject. Does that then lead to every subject becoming a valid travel topic, or does there have to be at least some travel related content involved? (The two linked articles currently lacking this). Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:33, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- The creator of these articles has assured us he will be back to flesh out the articles in more depth. I have my doubts, but I think it would be good to allow a certain grace period before we delete the articles (which we should regard as pcv if they're not developed beyond what we have currently). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:36, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- What about this text from WV:What is (not) an article: "People, animals, objects, or non-travel-related concepts (though sometimes notable people can be the subject of itineraries or travel topics: e.g., On the trail of Marco Polo and Astrid Lindgren tourism)." Emphasis on non-travel-related concepts.
- The other one is "Companies, even those holding a de facto monopoly or those owned by the state (hotels, restaurants, bars, stores, nightclubs, tour operators, airlines, rail or bus operators, etc.)" Yeah, sure, Minecraft isn't a company technically, but you get what I mean; it operates like one. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:54, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- I guess the article is painting Minecraft as a community or minor cultural movement, which could be valid if they decided to complete. I'm fine to have a grace period, I just don't see the articles having value 'as-is'.
- I also noticed we don't seem to have a travel topic dedicated to Computer games. Given there are significant tournaments and events held around the world, should we create one? Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:51, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- In principle nothing against articles on specific computer games but skeptical about these edits as contributing also editing Rocky Top, created by LibMod and edited previously buy Telstra. Suggest giving it a few day to see if improves, if not delete. A general article Computer games may be a good idea though. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:22, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm pretty relaxed about travel topics (I created Deserts — for example), but I don't think Computer games is at all within our scope. We have quite a few users who don't like any travel topics not directly related to travel, and I do not think they would support a travel topic of this nature. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:34, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
- It could be, I think, but it would have to be a good article, not something that smacks of page creation vandalism. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:08, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
- Basically yes, just like individual movies or tv series, if there are real world places to visit, individual computer games can very well be themes for travel topic articles. But the original author should not just create an article but take the responsibility to write a decent amount of content. Also a general computer games article can be warranted, provided that there exists enough places worth visiting for a decent sized article (and provided the person starting the article adds some of them). ϒψιλον (talk) 16:08, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
- There is a Wikipedia article on w:Esports that seems to have good travel content. w:List_of_gaming_conventions could also be in scope. Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:26, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
Does Wikivoyage need to add articles on the type of sightseeing spot?
I have been active on Chinese Wikivoyage for more than four years, but many netizens have responded that Wikivoyages can't create sightseeing spot articles, and instead go to Wikipedia to watch sightseeing spot articles, so Wikivoyage is not an attractive condition, even though Wikivoyages is a travel guide website, but they want to know the details of the sightseeing spot need to go to Wikipedia, very troublesome.
I know the specifications of Wikivoyage to create articles, but their reaction is also worth discussing this topic us. so does the Wikivoyage need to add articles on the type of sightseeing spot?
I think the sightseeing spot article can cover the chapters of arrival, history, characteristics and nearby etc. If everyone can agree with me, I hope that everyone can provide more opinions so that Wikivoyage can become a diversified travel guide. Thanks.--✈ IGOR ／ ✉ TALK?! ．WIKIVOYAGER ! 13:36, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
We can say some details and not descriptive, but I oppose to create new articles. --Streetdeck (talk) 14:24, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- The Chinese Wikivoyage can do whatever it wants. The English Wikivoyage isn't in control of the Chinese Wikivoyage. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- @IGOR: I don't really understand. Can you link to an example of what you're describing on Chinese WV? --Bigpeteb (talk) 18:04, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, and equally, if Yuri or any other member of the English Wikivoyage community would like to change our policy on attraction articles, they need only head over to Wikivoyage talk:What is an article? and make a proposal.
- As things stand, we have a rough guideline for whether attractions get articles or not called the "sleep test" - can a traveller legally sleep there? This way, Disneyland Paris gets an article, but the Eiffel Tower does not. But we can and should add enough information about the tower, both of practical use and just stuff that is interesting for visitors, to Paris/7th arrondissement. Any new proposal would have to address and counter this longstanding arrangement. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- As everyone said, I also tried to explain it to netizens, but it seems that they can't accept our policy. This is what I explained to Chinese netizens.--✈ IGOR ／ ✉ TALK?! ．WIKIVOYAGER ! 23:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Zhizu wants me to download an app just to read the comments, which I'm not going to do, so all I can read is the badly translated OP by Summer of the World. Some of her criticisms make no sense, probably due to getting lost in translation. They are about the Chinese Wikivoyage, of course, but I doubt Chinese Wikivoyagers are indulging in self-promotion within the travel guide. If they are, then it should be obvious what you need to do. One of her points is that you won't find opening hours for a particular park on Wikivoyage - did she forget that this is a wiki, and that she can add those opening hours herself? That is exactly the information all Wikivoyages should contain, in my view.
- But as stated above, the Chinese community can make any policies it likes for its own Wikivoyage. If you and your colleagues think articles for individual attractions would best serve your readership and encourage more participation, plunge forward! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 05:55, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- @ThunderingTyphoons!: I am very pleased that your advice and view, Chinese wikivoyage and other language communities are following the same rules and policies. However, her criticism is that she does not understand the ecology of wikivoyage. Her criticism is not only the Chinese community, but It is all Wikivoyage community. I also explained a lot about the role of creating article policies and wikivoyage to her know, but she never agrees; of course, the article on creating sightseeing spot does violate the established policy, and our Chinese community will follow this.--✈ IGOR ／ ✉ TALK?! ．WIKIVOYAGER ! 14:55, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Yuriy_kosygin: Are we talking just about the opinion of one person here, or is there a group of people saying there should be articles about attractions? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Basically, there are both. --✈ IGOR ／ ✉ TALK?! ．WIKIVOYAGER ! 22:12, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Yuriy_kosygin: Some but not all famous landmarks redirect to the relevant section in a destination article. For example Taj Mahal redirects to Agra#Taj_Mahal, Statue of Liberty redirects to Manhattan/Financial_District#New_York_Harbor while Buckingham Palace redirects to London/Westminster#Buckingham_Palace. Large landmarks or heritage sites which pass the sleep test have their own article like Pyramids of Giza. I personally think many more famous landmarks should redirect to the relevant city or district. Colosseum and Terracotta Army for instance are redlinks. This would at least ease the concerns that readers have that our coverage of sightseeing is not good enough. Gizza (roam) 21:50, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Also see this related discussion nearly two years ago here. Gizza (roam) 21:51, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Articles on people
With articles such as Dracula, Frank Lloyd Wright and Voyages of Roald Amundsen (which all seem legitimate) should we still have a general policy against articles on people? /Yvwv (talk) 00:17, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Probably. We also have Ned Kelly tourism too. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:21, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- The policy says:
- People, animals, objects, or non-travel-related concepts (though sometimes notable people can be the subject of itineraries or travel topics: e.g., On the trail of Marco Polo and Astrid Lindgren tourism).
- The Frank Lloyd Wright, Roald Amundsen and Ned Kelly articles are itineraries. They are travel articles that list sites that readers can visit that are associated with those people, not articles about the people. The Frank Lloyd Wright article
should behas been renamed Architecture of Frank Lloyd Wright, or something similar,to make this clearer. (Dracula was not a person, but a book, and the article lists some sites associated with the author, with films made from the book, and with Vlad Țepeș, upon whom the fictional character was very loosely based. Vlad Țepeș was not a vampire.) - Yes, we should continue to have a general policy against articles about people because Wikivoyage is a travel guide, not a biography site. Ground Zero (talk) 00:33, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- The policy says:
- We also have "on the trail of" itineraries for Alexander the Great, Marco Polo & even fictional Kim. Some important people get redirects, e.g. Genghis Khan & Tamerlane. I'd say all those are fine. Pashley (talk) 02:24, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- It doesn't seem like the current language of the policy needs to be edited, but if it were, how would we make it clearer? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:28, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- We do still want to keep general articles about people out. Someone's Aunt Tilly may have a very nice travel diary or list of recommendations, but we don't want Retracing Aunt Tilly or Aunt Tilly's Best of Southeast Asia Tour. The article makes it clear that notable people can be the topic of travel itineraries, which I think everyone agrees is good. Is the issue the article names being unqualified people's names? ChubbyWimbus (talk) 04:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- No. I don't think we've seen such articles, other than the joke article, "My House". Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:19, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Commonsense should prevail in this scenario, I will say. Of course, having an article about some random person's grandmother is beyond our scope, but regarding notable persons, I'd say it's within our scope. For instance, if people want to go to Omaha and visit sites connected to Warren Buffett, I'd say yes, that fits within the scope of a travel article. Perhaps we should apply WP's notability criteria in judging which people we can justify creating travel articles about? The dog2 (talk) 23:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- I would support keeping the existing policy in this case. Has there been an issue with this yet, or is this a solution looking for a problem? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- The idea to write an article on Voyages of Greta Thunberg got a reasonable objection that articles on living people would be difficult to keep up to date, and to a neutral point of view. A person honoured with an article should at the very least be deceased. Some case studies are Astrid Lindgren tourism and Carl Linnaeus tourism. /Yvwv (talk) 00:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. We could write that into our policy, though I don’t know of any articles created about living people yet. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- If we're not going to allow articles about the voyages of living people, do articles about movie or TV series have to be about series that we presume are over for good and all? I feel like it should at least be OK to have articles about the voyages of someone who's stopped traveling or stopped making notable trips. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:34, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- With a TV series, I'd say the series should be over. Maybe exceptions could be made for a long-running series that is still on to have an article created for it. I think I'd support a general rule that living people shouldn't get articles, but if someone has a living person in mind, they can always make a case for it. "The exception that proves the rule" and so forth. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- If we're not going to allow articles about the voyages of living people, do articles about movie or TV series have to be about series that we presume are over for good and all? I feel like it should at least be OK to have articles about the voyages of someone who's stopped traveling or stopped making notable trips. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:34, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. We could write that into our policy, though I don’t know of any articles created about living people yet. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- The idea to write an article on Voyages of Greta Thunberg got a reasonable objection that articles on living people would be difficult to keep up to date, and to a neutral point of view. A person honoured with an article should at the very least be deceased. Some case studies are Astrid Lindgren tourism and Carl Linnaeus tourism. /Yvwv (talk) 00:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- I would support keeping the existing policy in this case. Has there been an issue with this yet, or is this a solution looking for a problem? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Commonsense should prevail in this scenario, I will say. Of course, having an article about some random person's grandmother is beyond our scope, but regarding notable persons, I'd say it's within our scope. For instance, if people want to go to Omaha and visit sites connected to Warren Buffett, I'd say yes, that fits within the scope of a travel article. Perhaps we should apply WP's notability criteria in judging which people we can justify creating travel articles about? The dog2 (talk) 23:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
We have a Presidents of the United States article but there is a president currently in office, so I’d note we already have exceptions in place to the proposed living persons policy. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:16, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- As I said, let's just apply commonsense here. I would not support a Ben Shapiro tourism article any more than I will support a Greta Thunberg tourism article because of how politically contentious these figures are, and political disputes are things we should stay out of. But if you're talking about a Warren Buffett tourism article for instance, that should be relatively uncontroversial, if someone knows enough to write the article. The dog2 (talk) 16:13, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'd also question whether either of those two people (Shapiro and Thunberg) have done enough to constitute a travel-related article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:24, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Being a politically controversial individual shouldn't be a bar to having an article about your travels, if they're truly likely to be of interest to more than a small number of actual terrorists who kill people or something. However, young people hopefully have most of their lives ahead of them, whereas Warren Buffett may be old enough to have established most of the traveling he will do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:37, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- How are they related to travel? Sure, they've travelled, but why would we spend time on a list of places Thunberg has spoken, or a list of factories Buffet has toured? They aren't important to our understanding of these historical figures.
- Explorers are critical to our understanding of the world. Internationally famous architects have a legacy of built heritage that people want to see. Fans of books often want to visit places they've read about in novels about fictional people. These places are connected to the people in a way that is interesting from a travel perspective.
- The list of cities and towns that Ronald Reagan visited on the campaign trail or during presidential tours would be exceedingly long and dull. (I also have a problem with or historical articles that are just lists of cities and countries.) Listing his presidential library and various museums in the Presidents of the United States article, on the other hand, will be of interest to those who want to understand his presidency, and can be the basis for a travel itinerary. Ground Zero (talk) 17:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- I brought my parents to Omaha because they are Warren Buffet fans and wanted to have a look at the sites connected to Warren Buffett and his company, Berkshire Hathaway. For instance, they wanted to eat at his favourite steakhouse, to shop at some of the shops owned by Berkshire Hathaway such as Nebraska Furniture Mart and Borsheim's, and to also have a look at his house from the outside (of course, without actually invading his privacy). And every year, thousands of shareholders travel to Omaha for Berkshire Hathaway's AGM.
- To be clear, I am not starting the article because I do not know enough to be able write a good article, but yes, there is potential travel relevance for such an article if someone can do it well. The dog2 (talk) 18:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Superdog, if there’s some of that you want to add to Corporate tourism, it might appeal to that niche. But I agree with Ground Zero’s comment, which I think accurately summarizes why some individuals may deserve travel content and why some may not. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:33, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- To be clear, I actually agree with your points on specific individuals' travels, Ground Zero. I was just responding to the idea that someone's travels are off-limits for an article here merely because someone they are politically controversial. I think some of those explorers are and should be very controversial today. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:47, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think that The dog2 has made a case for a Warren Buffet article. There seems to be something there to provide a basis for a travel article -- more than just factories he's visited, so I amend my remarks above. I think that might be an exception to a general rule, but it would depend on how the article is written. Ground Zero (talk) 20:29, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- In the case of itineraries and travel topics, doesn't it always depend on how they're written? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:50, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think that The dog2 has made a case for a Warren Buffet article. There seems to be something there to provide a basis for a travel article -- more than just factories he's visited, so I amend my remarks above. I think that might be an exception to a general rule, but it would depend on how the article is written. Ground Zero (talk) 20:29, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- To be clear, I actually agree with your points on specific individuals' travels, Ground Zero. I was just responding to the idea that someone's travels are off-limits for an article here merely because someone they are politically controversial. I think some of those explorers are and should be very controversial today. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:47, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Superdog, if there’s some of that you want to add to Corporate tourism, it might appeal to that niche. But I agree with Ground Zero’s comment, which I think accurately summarizes why some individuals may deserve travel content and why some may not. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:33, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Being a politically controversial individual shouldn't be a bar to having an article about your travels, if they're truly likely to be of interest to more than a small number of actual terrorists who kill people or something. However, young people hopefully have most of their lives ahead of them, whereas Warren Buffett may be old enough to have established most of the traveling he will do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:37, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'd also question whether either of those two people (Shapiro and Thunberg) have done enough to constitute a travel-related article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:24, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
National parks with basically nothing for travellers
Technically, under the wordings of this article, national parks with absolutely zero things to see or do like w:Barakee National Park are eligible, despite actually failing the test (Here's the info from the NSW Parks website on Barakee Nat Park). Would the statement below sort of explain it all?
- National Parks with absolutely zero info on what is there, and zero things to see and do, and let alone eat or drink.
From all I know, these situations only arise in eastern Australia, Israel and to a lesser extent, Thailand. Never seen this situation arise in the US nor Canada, and don't know about most of Europe.
Would this be a good addition?
--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:02, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- The guideline says:
- Sleeping isn't all that travellers do, though, and there should be some content to fill out our other standard article sections. If there really is no place to find food, nothing to do, and nothing to see at a location, it's likely that the article won't meet the criteria established in this policy.
- We don't have to have articles on every place where you could sleep. We write articles on national parks if we think they are interesting and worthwhile visiting, not to get a complete set of articles. And what is a dull place for somebody isn't for somebody else. If you feel a place is dull, don't write about it – if an article is created, better that it is created by somebody who appreciates the place.
- I don't see we need any addition to the guideline. Has there been a problem?
- The park you cited as example was already mentioned at Talk:New South Wales National Parks#Parks that will never get its own article, where I wrote:
- The page links to this, which includes real information, such as:
- "Barakee National Park and Barakee SCA form part of a vegetated corridor extending from the Manning River floodplain to the Great Dividing Range, linking a diverse habitat assemblage and supporting a number of threatened fauna species. Vegetation communities are dominated by [...]"
- "Barakee National Park and Barakee SCA protect habitat for the threatened glossy black-cockatoo, scarlet robin, flame robin, eastern false pipistrelle, koala (Phascolarctos cinereus) and eastern bentwing-bat. [...] Other threatened species likely to occur include [...]"
- "The parks protect a high diversity of forest ecosystems and vegetation communities, including significant stands of old-growth forest and rainforest habitat.
- Although the parks are remote and difficult to access, resulting in low visitor numbers, Barakee National Park offers visitors a natural bushland experience. Nature-based recreational opportunities available at Ernies Flat include camping, fishing, four-wheel driving, swimming and walking."
- I don't know how common these features are ([...]), but I get the impression that some people indeed would like to visit this park after having read the description.
- The page links to this, which includes real information, such as:
- That description includes the things to see and do (or part of them), I don't know how you interpret it as "absolutely zero things to see or do". And for drinking and eating, there are many parks where you need to carry your water and food, and which are popular nonetheless.
- (I expanded the linked Wikipedia article a bit. Look in the history for the previous stub, –LPfi (talk) 00:22, 30 September 2021 (UTC))
how not to bite a newbie #2
Hi I received a deleted page notice that said something like "campground fail wv:wiaa" with a link to this page. It took some help from a helpful editor to get me to realize that that person was even offering me a link to a reason. All I saw was "campground fail" because wv:wiaa had no meaning to me. "Campground fail" also had very little meaning to me.
I know that it takes a lot of work to keep a wiki tidy and organized. This is a request to all editors with the power to tidy and organize to not use seemingly-meaningless abbreviations like wv:wiaa in delete notices without any context. Context is helpful. Please and thank you, and tell all your fellow editors wherever this topic is supposed to go. Lots of love.
Signed, A newb who cares a lot about welcomingness and works in volunteer-run collective spaces elsewhere. 172.58.19.12 17:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- The deletion message was "campgrounds fail wv:wiaa," with wv:wiaa being a clickable link to a page that explains why. However, if you didn't know that blue text was clickable, your confusion is completely understandable, and we can always do better. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:38, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- I agree and I do apologize for not being very clear enough. I'll take better care next time when dealing with articles that don't meet the criteria for an article. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:26, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
Articles for complex train stations?
It has been in the news that Howrah and Kolkata railway stations in India will be upgraded with an airport-like experience, and Howrah railway station is already the largest train complex in India. This means that very large and complex train stations might get its own articles just like very large and complex airports within the foreseeable future. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:17, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- That would require a discussion. So far, neither train nor bus stations can have their own articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Until such articles are warranted, I'll list stuff in the respective city articles instead and see whether they will overload the existing listings. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:32, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- I a little bit wish we could have articles like Public Transit in $CITY_OR_REGION_NAME. Often the main page goes into too much detail on this topic for my tastes. I'm a city person so I just want to read the barest of essentials, and folks who need more help can dig in to the details. Agree with Sbb, we should wait until there is content to support the creation of these pages, like in London for example. ButteBag (talk) 13:35, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Wasn't there a discussion about creating station articles a few weeks ago? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:56, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. It didn't focus on stations, though.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:00, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Linking Wikivoyage talk:Airport Expedition#Metropolitan airport, train and bus station articles if the former doesn't work. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 14:02, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. It didn't focus on stations, though.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:00, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Wasn't there a discussion about creating station articles a few weeks ago? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:56, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- I have no objection in principle to having articles about complex train stations. I could see such articles being useful for travellers to countries like China or Japan, where stations some stations can be a really complex maze with many different lines. If you've been to the train stations in Tokyo or Shanghai, you'll find that some of them can be as complex to navigate as airports. The dog2 (talk) 15:36, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- +1 to ButteBag's suggestion of more articles like Public transit in the Bay Area and Public transit in Israel. Unlike city folk, though, I sometimes wish for step-by-step walkthroughs (do you just need to buy your ticket, or do you also have to do something with it after you board the bus?), maybe with pictures (e.g., maps of train stations, what the ticket machines look like). WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, huh, so theses articles do exist! I thought they were banned or at the very least frowned upon. Getting back to the original question, I thought airport articles were allowed because they often include hotels or a place to sleep. (I am a low information contributor, so please take this with a grain of salt.) So following that logic, if a rail station includes a hotel it should be OK? But for me... the whole "sleep" thing turns the Bay Area Transit article into something we should delete, which I don't agree with. I'd like to see something like:
- "Transit options of sufficient complexity (and with plentiful existing content), may be treated like the district of a city or any other bottom level destination page."
- I don't know, just throwing it out there. ButteBag (talk) 18:06, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- I think you'd want to start with a slightly more general article, and build a single-station article only if we needed it. For example, we have Rail travel in India and we have Kolkata#By train, but why not write something in between the two? Public transit in Kolkata could be a very good travel topic, if you wanted to focus on travel within the city and its suburbs. The Rail travel article is more about rail service between cities. From what @Sbb1413 says, it would not be reasonable for it to have a solid section on Kolkata's main train station on some page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:34, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing thank you for your input. I've created an article on public transport in Kolkata and all I have to do is to link this article to the main Kolkata article. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 05:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
- I think you'd want to start with a slightly more general article, and build a single-station article only if we needed it. For example, we have Rail travel in India and we have Kolkata#By train, but why not write something in between the two? Public transit in Kolkata could be a very good travel topic, if you wanted to focus on travel within the city and its suburbs. The Rail travel article is more about rail service between cities. From what @Sbb1413 says, it would not be reasonable for it to have a solid section on Kolkata's main train station on some page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:34, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, huh, so theses articles do exist! I thought they were banned or at the very least frowned upon. Getting back to the original question, I thought airport articles were allowed because they often include hotels or a place to sleep. (I am a low information contributor, so please take this with a grain of salt.) So following that logic, if a rail station includes a hotel it should be OK? But for me... the whole "sleep" thing turns the Bay Area Transit article into something we should delete, which I don't agree with. I'd like to see something like:
- If you have two hours between trains, it is usually straightforward to walk out of the station and explore the surrounding area. This is rarely possible with at an airport. The shops in a railway station are usually available to non-travellers. Thus railway stations are much more part of the city that they are in. They may be a few railway stations which are more isolated from the city, like stations where you go through immigration and customs before entering a sealed waiting area.
- We do have Rail travel in India which is a guide article which has been featured on the main page, but still has scope for improvement. AlasdairW (talk) 22:04, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- That's true for many parts of the world, but it's not universal. In China, for example, train stations are much more similar to airports in that you'll have to show your passport and go through security when you enter the building. If you have two hours between trains there, you'll spend them inside ... El Grafo (talk) 07:43, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- For stations like that, it may well be necessary to split the info off into a separate article, but these should be the exception rather than the rule, and it should be first demonstrated that the travel-relevant info is overwhelming the city/district article, not just that it could. If we do allow this, we're going to have to be quite strict on the requirements, because I really don't think that even stations like London St Pancras and Paris Gare du Nord (which do have sealed-off areas behind passport control) need separate articles, but the temptation might be there to create those once we have others.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- Public transit in London and Public transit in Paris would both make useful travel topics. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:35, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- And naturally, Public transit in Tokyo too. The dog2 (talk) 16:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- We also have Public transport in Sydney, Public transport in Stockholm and Trams in Melbourne as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:55, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- London Underground was a topic that existed previously before being redirected. I would have no objections to some of the Lengthy Get around material in London being moved to it's own topic page, with a summarised version in the main Lodnon article. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:32, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- It even had a banner that could be re-used - File:London_Underground_banner.jpg , although a Red London Bus or black cab might be more representative of the topic. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:35, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- Since an underground expansion in 2017, Stockholm's central station is notoriously complex, but it is not really a destination in its own right. The station could most suitably be described in the Public transportation in Stockholm County article. /Yvwv (talk) 11:49, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- It even had a banner that could be re-used - File:London_Underground_banner.jpg , although a Red London Bus or black cab might be more representative of the topic. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:35, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- And naturally, Public transit in Tokyo too. The dog2 (talk) 16:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- Public transit in London and Public transit in Paris would both make useful travel topics. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:35, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- For stations like that, it may well be necessary to split the info off into a separate article, but these should be the exception rather than the rule, and it should be first demonstrated that the travel-relevant info is overwhelming the city/district article, not just that it could. If we do allow this, we're going to have to be quite strict on the requirements, because I really don't think that even stations like London St Pancras and Paris Gare du Nord (which do have sealed-off areas behind passport control) need separate articles, but the temptation might be there to create those once we have others.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
So what was the outcome of this?
Creating pages for complex train & bus stations is permissible, however it's a very high bar to clear. Before creating a new station article, it should first be decided that there is an "overwhelming" amount of pre-existing content. Generally speaking, it would be preferable to create a new travel topic page Public transit in $LOCATION, before any individual station pages.
Does that sound about right? --ButteBag (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- I doubt it. How about:
- This site does not have pages for complex train & bus stations. Before starting one, you must demonstrate that there is an overwhelming amount of pre-existing content and attain a consensus behind your proposal. Generally speaking, it would be preferable to create a new travel topic page Public transit in $LOCATION, before any individual station pages.
- Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:55, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- We might suggest Rail travel in $LOCATION as another useful name.
- The points of difference between these two appear to be:
- whether it's "permissible" or "hasn't happened yet" (Ikan, I assume you're trying to make a statement of fact, rather than prohibiting them? The wording will be interpreted both ways.)
- whether you need to get written permission in advance.
- Are there any other key points? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:01, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
- It is currently prohibited. Permitting it would require a discussion. That accounts for the phrasing I propose. The default answer is "No", and to get to "Yes", there would need to be a convincing argument. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:53, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
- Another question, whether the name of the travel topic should be "Public transit in Foobar", "Public transport in Foobar" or "Public transportation in Foobar", as it would solve the inconsistency among the names Public transportation, Public transport in Sydney and Public transit in Israel. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 05:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- I think this boils down to ENGVAR. Public transportation is an American term, public transport is a British term (also used in British-influenced varieties of English), while public transit is a mix-mash of the two. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:24, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- No reason to standardize/standardise across the site, in my opinion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:51, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- If the thing boils down to ENGVAR, I'll stop talking about such so-called "inconsistencies", as the different words meaning the "conveyance of people from one place to another" are associated with certain English variants. The name Public transport in Kolkata and Howrah is fine as India use British English and "public transport" is the British term. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 18:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- I think this boils down to ENGVAR. Public transportation is an American term, public transport is a British term (also used in British-influenced varieties of English), while public transit is a mix-mash of the two. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:24, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Does Wikovoyage accept articles about individual castles?
Some castles are very large, UNESCO level, need their own maps, etc. But I checked and Louvre, Himeji Castle, Wawel, Windsor, Nueschwanstein, anything else I checked is just a listing, occasionally a section with several listing in an article about a given location (the only exception I found so far is Beijing/Forbidden_City. Is this intentional? Would any attempt to create an article about a castle or similar attraction in the form of a dedicated article be reverted? For more context, one of my students (see few posts above) wanted to write a guide for Suwon Hwaseong (a large castle, UNESCO heritage site, in Korea), now just a short listing in Suwon. Can he start to write stuff at Suwon/Hwaseong Fortress or should I tell him to chose a different topic? Piotrus (talk) 05:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- No, castles should be listed in the article for the nearest town. The Forbidden City is far from being just a castle. See Wikivoyage:What is an article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- Most listings for castles have links to Wikipedia articles. You could add any info to those articles if it's relevant. -- WOSlinker (talk) 10:02, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- ...but we have articles on some ruins (Ephesus), also on some airports. If it's a few pages long article with floor maps, links, pictures, some 'short history'/context info... I'd reckon such a castle article would be OK? Basically a better equivalent to guide pamphlet (or audioguide) you get along with your ticket in such places... -- andree 08:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- What article do we have that's about a single building? A castle is a single building. If this is more than a single building, I don't think it's just a castle. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:56, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- Based on w:Hwaseong Fortress, this is much more than a castle and might fulfill the criteria of Wikivoyage:What is an article. But I'd suggest starting it as a listing and seeing how much travel-related (non-encyclopedic) information is in the listing and whether it starts to overwhelm the Suwon article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:59, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- Yep, iterative approach sounds like the right way... -- andree 11:01, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- Basically I was thinking about something like Versailles, sans the city POIs. Indeed, if it's just one small-ish building, it may not make sense. But if there are gardens, multiple buildings, various interesting statues or whatnot, I could imagine an interesting article (something like inventory, even without encyclopedic details). Just my 2¢ as counterargument... -- andree 11:00, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- Based on w:Hwaseong Fortress, this is much more than a castle and might fulfill the criteria of Wikivoyage:What is an article. But I'd suggest starting it as a listing and seeing how much travel-related (non-encyclopedic) information is in the listing and whether it starts to overwhelm the Suwon article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:59, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- What article do we have that's about a single building? A castle is a single building. If this is more than a single building, I don't think it's just a castle. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:56, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- ...but we have articles on some ruins (Ephesus), also on some airports. If it's a few pages long article with floor maps, links, pictures, some 'short history'/context info... I'd reckon such a castle article would be OK? Basically a better equivalent to guide pamphlet (or audioguide) you get along with your ticket in such places... -- andree 08:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- Most listings for castles have links to Wikipedia articles. You could add any info to those articles if it's relevant. -- WOSlinker (talk) 10:02, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- Suwon might benefit from Districtification. A major attraction could perhaps have a ===Subsection=== with several paragraphs about it.
- If there are many important things to see in Hwaseong Fortress, then it might be possible to write an itinerary. Another possibility is adding it to the pages about Cultural attractions, like the Imperial tombs of the Ming and Qing dynasties. If you look through the list at UNESCO World Heritage List then you can see the many different ways various attractions have been handled. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- See also Wikivoyage:Listings#Historic buildings, sites and natural formations. A private mansion unlikely to draw visitors, would not be listed at all. A small castle of historical importance would in the typical case be a see entry. A colossal castle with various amenities (a gift shop, a restaurant etc) could have multiple entries in different categories. /Yvwv (talk) 11:09, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks everyone. I think for now I'll direct my students to work mostly on articles about cities/town etc. Maybe a province if they insist as some occasionally do, but probably city/town level is the easiest. Piotrus (talk) 07:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
- See also Wikivoyage:Listings#Historic buildings, sites and natural formations. A private mansion unlikely to draw visitors, would not be listed at all. A small castle of historical importance would in the typical case be a see entry. A colossal castle with various amenities (a gift shop, a restaurant etc) could have multiple entries in different categories. /Yvwv (talk) 11:09, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Waypoint cities
I am wondering whether cities that are on a way to a destination should merit an article if the cities have other amenities but no attraction or activity. For instance, Rampurhat is a waypoint city to Tarapith (a temple town) in most cases and Rampurhat has hotels and restaurants but no attractions. These two cities along with Nalhati were merged to North Birbhum on the basis of "See" listing only. The same problem is observed in Kargil (a waypoint city to Leh), which has only one "See" listing. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:32, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- I also like to point out that travelling is not for pleasurable or pilgrimage purposes only. After all, we have travel topics on various reasons to travel. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:36, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- I recently wrote an article about New Italy earlier this month, which is a roadside town along a freeway. While it does contain a museum and an art gallery, it is only visited because it's a highway attraction. I think it would be fine creating such articles; I agree that travelling is not just for pleasure or the alike. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:08, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with SHB here. In some cases one-sight destinations are best covered in an itinerary, but they could also be mentioned in Get in and described in a Nearby section of the next town with article, or in some cases in the region article (if they are on an artery road of the region).
- In this case Rampurhat and Tarapith are both handled in the rural area article of North Birbhum, which I think works well (although the article could be improved). Although the area is said to be "vast", there is just 20 km or so between the towns (that's nothing in Finland, but I understand distances in Bengal may feel longer). I don't understand the benefit of splitting it up if Rampurhat mostly is just a waypoint city of Tarapith. If the article becomes unwieldy, then one can reconsider.
- See also Wikivoyage:Listings#Listings outside a destination and perhaps some of the long preceding discussion Wikivoyage talk:Listings#Listings outside of the destination, but
- –LPfi (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- I want to split North Birbhum mainly to split Nalhati from Rampurhat and Tarapith, since Nalhati is a separate destination and may or may not be covered along with Tarapith. And I think Rampurhat can be best covered in Tarapith instead, since the distance between Rampurhat and Tarapith is about 8.8 km (5.5 mi) and can be covered in about 17 minutes. So I plunge forward and do the split. For Kargil, I will merge its nearby destinations to Kargil. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. Do according to your best judgement. In this case your solution doesn't even conflict with the guidelines on the geographic hierarchy (if it would, one could rethink the division when trying to get some of them featured or up to star). –LPfi (talk) 10:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Using the advice on this page, I've just created Coolongolook, a town of ≈380 with zero things to see or do but popular with travellers heading north from Sydney and Newcastle (New South Wales). WV:OUTSIDE doesn't really give any advice for this, but I think it is a useful addition. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:19, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. Do according to your best judgement. In this case your solution doesn't even conflict with the guidelines on the geographic hierarchy (if it would, one could rethink the division when trying to get some of them featured or up to star). –LPfi (talk) 10:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- I want to split North Birbhum mainly to split Nalhati from Rampurhat and Tarapith, since Nalhati is a separate destination and may or may not be covered along with Tarapith. And I think Rampurhat can be best covered in Tarapith instead, since the distance between Rampurhat and Tarapith is about 8.8 km (5.5 mi) and can be covered in about 17 minutes. So I plunge forward and do the split. For Kargil, I will merge its nearby destinations to Kargil. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- –LPfi (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- I've seen that certain New York suburbs in Hudson County, NJ (excluding Jersey City) have very few "See" and "Do" listings, proving that a city that has few to no "See" and "Do" listings but has other listings (Learn, Buy, Eat, Drink, Sleep, Connect etc.) do make sense. After all, seeing and doing are not the only reason to travel. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 09:20, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
City or other destination?
@LPfi, Sbb1413: With no documentation outlining whether such waypoint towns should be in the cities or other destinations section, it left me wondering where should these be listed. I'm undecided on this; it's why I'm starting this discussion. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:53, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- A waypoint town seems to me by definition to be en route to a certain city. Shouldn't it then be described in Nearby of that city (and mentioned in its Get in)? There are of course special cases, such as when they warrant their own article ("city", if it's about the town itself), or when they are part of a "rural area" ("city" or "other destinations" in the region article, depending on whether there are more city-like places in Cities). Having them described only in Cities or Other destinations is awkward, as you would like to have their listings somewhere else, be they just a museum, just a restaurant or just a bus station (a bus station could be handled by a marker or listing in Get around, with no mention in Cities/Other destinations, but if there are restaurants and a hostel also, it could be a short city article unless there are other good solutions). –LPfi (talk) 11:20, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- I just realised I never mentioned why I asked this question, but I asked because I was wondering where Coolongolook would go in Mid-North Coast. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:25, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know the place (never been down under), but it is described as a village of 300-some while it looks that the other "cities" are more or less real towns. There also are 11 "cities" in the region and only 3 other destinations, so i would be inclined to put it as an other destination. However, the other towns are also small, so it might fit in the list of cities as it is now. A few words more in the description (and some description for every "city") would make a bigger difference than the placement. –LPfi (talk) 20:02, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- I just realised I never mentioned why I asked this question, but I asked because I was wondering where Coolongolook would go in Mid-North Coast. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:25, 3 November 2022 (UTC)