See also: Talk:Brussels/Archive

The article is quite full to the brim with listings and valuable content, while not describing Brussels not nearly as good enough as it could. That is great, as it shows that despite all the popular adages, Brussels IS an interesting and worthwhile destination, but I was wondering whether it doesn't reach the point when districtification would be recommendable. What do you guys think? PrinceGloria (talk) 20:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Brussels article contains enough content to be districtified. You'll have to propose districts hierarchy for Brussels. --Saqib (talk) 21:13, 13 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Gladly even if ill-informed-ly, as I do not consider myself an expert on Brussels.

Normally I prefer to go by administrative divisions, but this time it would not make much sense, as the City of Brussels municipality spreads its tentacles all over the most important attractions. Therefore, I would propose, going a bit after the French Wikipedia:

• Le Pentagone (see also list of attractions)
• Le quartier européen (including the Parc du Cinquantenaire and Quarier Leopold areas
• Southeast - Avenue Louise, Avenue Roosevelt and Bois de la Cambre together with Etterbeek and Saint-Gilles Ixelles
• Northeast - Laeken, Berchem-Sainte-Agathe, Ganshoren, Jette, Koekelberg, Molenberg-Saint-Jean
• Anderlecht
• Southern suburbs - Forest, Uccle and Watermael-Boitsfort
• Eastern suburbs - Woluwe-Saint-Lambert, Woluwe-Saint-Pierre and Auderghem
• the North - Saint-Josse-ten-Noode, Schaerbeek, Evere, Neder-over-Heembeek and Haren

This is a very uninformed guess, so I believe it would be better if a Brusselite opined on that. But at least it's a start. PrinceGloria (talk) 04:56, 14 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Ok guys, how about this? PrinceGloria (talk) 17:13, 5 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

I would like to bring this discussion back to live. I have studied in Brussels and occasionally I still work there, so allow me to say that I have some knowledge on the city. User PrinceGloria has made an interesting start in the divison of Brussels into Wikivoyage districts. Mostly I can agree with his proposal (such as Pentagon, European Quarter, ...), however I would like to suggest a few changes.

• Pentagon: the historical center of the city within the former, unfortunately demolished, city walls.
• European Quarter: Including Parc du Cinquantenaire and Quartier Leopold areas.
• West: Molenbeek-Saint-Jean, Koekelberg, Anderlecht, Berghem-Sainte-Agathe, Ganshoren, Jette municipalities. I added Anderlecht here because there are not so many interesting sights in Anderlecht and there is no visible barrier between Anderlecht and Molenbeek. Anderlecht is mostly connected with this area of Brussels.
• South: Saint-Gilles, Forest and Uccle municipalities. I suggest so because public transport to Uccle from the centre mainly goes through these two municipalities. Look and feel-wise Uccle is however quite different from the other two.
• Southeast: The lushy and expensive Louise, Ixelles and Etterbeek areas.
• East: Woluwe municipalities, Ouderghem, Watermael-Boitsfort. Quite green and residential areas.
• North: The dense residential St-Josse-ten-Node, Schaerbeek and Evere areas. I am doubting about the Laken area though as, again, it has a quite different feel. However I am afraid that, when adding it to the West district, the district may get too large.

I am looking forward to your responses. Podrozniczek (talk) 12:52, 24 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

I agree with the definition of Pentagon and European Quarter, but wonder about the urban accuracy of the classification of remaining areas. Woluwe, Oudergem, Etterbeek, Ukkel, Elsene and Watermaal all share the same "personality" as a "lushy residential area", as you phrased it, and could be grouped together. In contrast, Anderlecht, Vorst, Molenbeek, Koekelberg, Schaarbeek and St. Joost all share characteristics that are more resembling the banlieus around Paris, with an overall lower human development index than the aforementioned municipalities: lower wealth, high concentrations of immigrants etc. So these can also be grouped together. St. Agatha Berchem, Jette, Laken, Neder Over Heembeek and Haren can also be grouped together as residential areas in the north. Finally, I would introduce the Business District around Brussels North station as a distinct area, as well as Evere due to its international (NATO) character. For the typical tourist visiting Brussels, the districtifiation would matter very little since most of what is of touristic value is situated inside the pentagon. However, it may be interesting to mention in the Stay Safe section that the banlieu municipalities should be avoided at night if possible. If districts other than the pentagon are to have separate pages (I "accidentally" discovered the existance of Brussels/East page for example) then they should at least be referenced in the main article. Now it seems they are ignored/neglected since few know of their existence, and most attractions are listed in the main article anyway. ArticCynda (talk) 23:15, 3 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

As the consensus seems to be in favour of retaining districts for Brussels, does it makes sense to remove the merge tags from the existing district articles? Ground Zero (talk) 14:11, 1 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

There is no debate about whether districtification is necessary, but rather if they deserve separate pages or should be merged into one article. I am very much in favour of having a single article with subdivisions for the different districts, as following the example of Sarajevo and others. Consider it from the perspective of the traveler: they visit Brussels as a whole, and want to know which attractions are worth visiting in the entire city. Since most of the important attractions are in the Pentagon, a comparison would be difficult. How the districts should be named, and what their boundaries should be, is another debate. ArticCynda (talk) 21:23, 14 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

In Wikivoyage, when a city article becomes long and complex, it's districts are broken out into separate articles. We don't have a single article for Paris, London, Amsterdam, Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki, and so on. Each of those cities is divided amongst a bunch of district articles. As this discussion, has not proceeded, and there is a consensus, policy, and precedent for separate articles, I'll remove the merge tags. The discussion can continue, of course, if you want to make a new proposal for merging, but you'll need an argument that is better aligned with Wikivoyage practice. Ground Zero (talk) 11:47, 11 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

I believe one of the basic rules of Wikivoyage is: don't list what's not worth listing. The Brussels/North article for example is nearly empty not because nobody took the time to complete it, but simply because there really isn't anything worth listing in that district aside from Train World and the prostitutes of the North station area. So what's the point of having an article on that? Brussels (and Belgium) in general are densely populated, with huge highly urbanized/residential areas where there literally is nothing of interest to travelers. Just because an area is part of a city doesn't mean it deserves to be listed. ArticCynda (talk) 14:26, 11 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

It has one site and a few places to skeep. And the other six districts have lots of sites, lots of places to sleep and to eat. Merging all of those listings into the main article would make the article massive and unwieldy. The next step will be to start moving listings from the main article into the district articles, as is done for other cities.

Is there still interest in discussing re-allocating the districts? If so, then it would make sense to wait until that is done before starting to move things from the main article. But if the discussion is going to languish for months and months like this one has, then we would be better off working with the existing districts. Ground Zero (talk) 14:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

The length of an article alone is, in my opinion, a poor argument to split it up in multiple districts. It's usually more convenient for the traveler to keep information grouped together rather than to scatter it over multiple pages in small fragments. There are many good examples on Wikivoyage already, for example the article on Sarajevo (a capital city comparable to Brussels in size) is longer than the Brussels article, and also there it wouldn't make sense to split it up. Keep in mind that the average traveler visits Brussels and not Brussels North or Brussels South on a weekend or day trip.

However, if there would be consensus to districtify (which there isn't yet, as far as the discussion appears to stand now), then I propose a strategy like Mexico City: define districts for areas where there is actually something to see, and ignore the boring residential areas (areas marked gray on the map, but aren't covered by a district). Whichever attractions fall outside these defined districts can still be mentioned in the "main" article as there will be few (Train World being an example for Brussels). ArticCynda (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

The districts were created a year ago. The question is whether to mash in all of the information from those seven articles into this one. I oppose that. The average traveller does not visit Copenhagen/Northern suburbs either, but we still have Copenhagen broken into districts. Or Vantaa and Northern Helsinki, or Prague/East bank of Vltava, or Oslo/Inner North, or Vancouver/South. I don't object to re-organizing the district articles if you want to take that on by proposing a new alignment. Ground Zero (talk) 16:36, 11 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

That seems a good compromise to get to a consensus. Can we agree that the article needs to be districtified, but with a proper redefinition of the districts? Based on the current map markers, I propose 4 districts: the Pentagon (historic center within the inner ring), the European Quarter including the Cinquantenaire, the Heysel and its surroundings, and Woluwe until the boundaries with Kraainem. If there is no opposition against such a redefinition, I volunteer to take the initiative to start this massive endeavor, and finally get the issue sorted. ArticCynda (talk) 18:12, 11 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Looks like a good plan! Plunge forward! Ground Zero (talk) 18:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘So just for the record, User:Ground Zero removed the merge tags. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

No-one but the person proposing the merger had written in favour of it after eight months, so there was no consensus for merger. How long should merge tags linger? Ground Zero (talk) 03:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero: The article just reached (and exceeded) the maximum of 99 allowed See listings, so I'm formally withdrawing any objections against districtification. ArticCynda (talk) 12:04, 22 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

@ArticCynda: so was the intention to add listings until it breaks the code for the article just to make a point about Districtification? Now that the page does not work, do you intend to split the article up and fix the problem?--Traveler100 (talk) 16:12, 6 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

@ArticCynda: please start expanding the districts before adding any more listings. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:31, 6 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Traveler100: I was also surprised that the listing template apparently breaks above certain number of total listings on a single page. I'm equally surprised that nobody pointed that out months ago when the Districtification road map was proposed and accepted by consensus, although one of the work packages there is adding listings...

Anyway, I think the majority of the touristically important See and Do listings are now added, which allows us to work on a more sensible division in districts. ArticCynda (talk) 20:21, 6 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Traveler100: Off topic, I find it insulting that you suggest I added listings with as aim to break to page to make a supposed point. I never have engaged in such childish actions, nor do I feel the need for them, nor do I have the time for them. ArticCynda (talk) 07:41, 7 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sorry maybe a little rash a comment, was a little busy, guess I should have waited before making input. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:52, 7 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Apology accepted, let's continue making the Brussels article great again! ArticCynda (talk) 08:36, 9 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Based on the distribution of the added POIs, I propose the following districtification with 10 districts:

1. Pentagon, the city center enclosed by the inner ring way (i.e. roughly the trajectory of the 2^nd city walls)
2. Business District, the area north of the Pentagon, including the North station, and Thurn & Taxis
3. Heysel, the northern most part of Laeken, but stretching out to the Musea of the Far East and the Royal Palace
4. European Quarter, east from the Pentagon including the Cinquantenaire
5. Matonge, African district south of the Pentagon
6. International District, south west of the Pentagon, including the banlieu suburbs of Vorst, Molenbeek, and the rough parts of Anderlecht
7. South East Residential District, Woluwe, Watermaal, parts of Schaarbeek, Ukkel
8. West Residential District, Koekelberg, St-Agatha-Berchem, Laken
9. St-Joost, St-Joost-Ten-Node and rough parts of Schaarbeek
10. Industrial District, the north east including the canal zone, Haren, and the industrial zone bordering Vilvoorde

Of course, then names are still up for debate. What does everyone else think of this? ArticCynda (talk) 10:59, 9 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Since no one seems to be willing to spare the effort to provide feedback and/or input — surprising for an article with the impact and visibility of this one — I've gone ahead and implemented the districtification, with 4 additional districts. The district map is hosted on Commons can can be found here. ArticCynda (talk) 23:14, 17 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we are currently using this banner instead of the one which is currently used here. Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 03:40, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Not close. The new banner is beautiful, so much better than the current one. The current one is not nearly so interesting; the new banner makes me want to visit Brussels as soon as possible. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:34, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

+1 new banner. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:45, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, no contest. The first one is too much in shadow. Texugo (talk) 12:55, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

The current banner is a disaster, with all due respect to whom I presume to be the author given the style of it. The other one is clearly a winner, though I believe we may find a better picture still - the current one does not lend itself all that well to cropping as the town hall gets cut off awkwardly however we slice it. The source is also not a very high-quality pic to begin with and as a result, the banner gets grainy when rendered at banner resolution. PrinceGloria (talk) 18:41, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

PS. Quite many of our Belgian / Northern French city banners have a medieval market square pictured, as this is a common feature thereof, and Brussels is different in that it is actually a more eclectic city, with all the European stuff and the latter 20th century architecture. We may want to go along that route for a more diverse pic, perhaps a view from the terrace under the royal memorial?

I prefer the new banner. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 19:45, 6 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Lower banner is much better to me. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 00:28, 8 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Prefer newer banner Matroc (talk) 03:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Please have a look at this I think the wording introduced in these edits is a bit too harsh, but maybe the former wording is sugarcoating it too much (Have a look at this to see what I mean). However, I have not yet been to Brussels, so I defer to better judgment. Opinions? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:38, 29 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

I wasn't aware that the architectural eye sore that Brussels became is so infamous there is even a word (brusselization) for it. Regardless it is probably a matter of preference and perspective, I personally find the lack of zoning and restrictions on urban development an ugly result, while the less architecture loving visitors may find it a unique blend as the article suggests. ArticCynda (talk) 23:21, 29 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

One can expect public announcements in train stations to at least be said in French and Dutch, while trains going to Brussels Airport are announced stations (such as Zuidstation/Gare Du Midi) typically include English and German.

Is this true? I thought only trains to Brussels Airport are announced in English and German. FranklyMyDear... (talk) 21:37, 22 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

The way I understand it, it does not claim any trains but those going to the airport have German or English announcements. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:34, 22 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Oh, I'm sorry @Hobbitschuster: I posted a modification by me instead of a quote. Here is the quote of the real text I am referring to:

One can expect public announcements in train stations to at least be said in French and Dutch, while larger train stations (such as Zuidstation/Gare Du Midi) typically include English and German.

FranklyMyDear... (talk) 22:26, 26 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Regarding this edit, there is an immediate question: Why? Why should one not open one's laptop? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:35, 1 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I don't know for sure, but as it's mentioned together with pickpockets (and by extension petty thievery in general), I assume there's a real risk that a thief will grab your laptop and run. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:31, 1 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I opened my laptop many times on the metro in Brussels, never had a problem with it. The Safety section seems to be written by someone who doesn't know Brussels very well, I'll rewrite it when I have some time. ArticCynda (talk) 14:04, 11 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Since a consensus in favor of districtification has been reached, let's work out a road map on implementing it. Suggesting the following:

• Merging split-offs back into the main article. done
• Adding remaining POIs to the article. ONGOING
• Removing obsolete POIs (notably in the Do and Buy sections). TODO
• Adding dynamic map markers for any POI that does not currently have any, also removing duplicate markers. TODO
• Redefining district boundaries based on earlier consensus and locations of the POIs -- trying to include as many POIs as reasonably possible. done
• Creating district articles and moving POIs from main article to respective districts. ONGOING
• Rewriting See section as a summary. TODO
• Rewriting Do section as a summary. TODO
• Creating a static map for Brussels main article with all the districts marked in different colors. TODO
• Fixing dead links resulting from renaming districts. TODO

ArticCynda (talk) 11:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

I've recently added all the active lines of the MIVB network to the Template:Rail-interchange template, making them available in this article. They synergize well with the Template:Station template which allows for more consistent rendering of public transport stops across Wikivoyage articles. Unfortunately, as pointed out by Andree.sk, using the template(s) has the tendency to clutter the article, giving it the look of a children's coloring book rather than a professional travel guide. I propose we come to a consensus on how to apply the {{rint|}} and/or station templates throughout the Brussels article, finding a good trade-off between usability for the traveler (under the directions field etc.) but without making the article too heavy to read. A few possible options to kick off the discussion:

• station template: Centraal Station  M1  M5  29  38  48  63  65  66  71  N08 
• station template with reduced line list: 4 most frequently used lines: Centraal Station  M1  M5  29  N08 
• station template with reduced line list: only metro or tram lines: Centraal Station  M1  M5 
• station template with rint template: separating metro and tram/bus:  M1  M5  Centraal Station  29  38  48  63  65  66  71  N08 
• station template with rint template and reduced line list: 4 most frequently used lines:  M1  M5  Centraal Station  29  N08 
• station template with rint template, omitting symbol:  M1  M5  Centraal Station  29  N08 
• station template integrating rint template with reduced line list: Centraal Station  M1  M5  29  N08 

ArticCynda (talk) 08:05, 5 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi, thanks for calling:)) First, let me tell you I appreciate the amount of work you put into this. In the end, I guess the decision about the topic should be based on the local conditions. Some cities have only 1 or 2 minor metro lines, and most of the transport is done via other means. So one-size-fits-all obviously doesn't work... Also - AFAIR I saw WV de/fr articles that were far more "visual-noisy" than this, if that calms you :)

However, I'd argue that WV isn't meant primarily for the locals. Thus we don't need to put detailed/optimal transport options, since you usually use some kind of local route-finder webpage for that (or even google can do it for many cities). And if it is 5min differrence, I'd probably prefer taking metro/tram in an unknown city, rather than bus (unless it's the only option, ofc)...

Big point also is that tram/bus routes (at least in Prague) tend to change every year, slightly. WV snapshots may be used for many years... So for this reason, I'd stick with metro+premetro, plus maybe the major lines which are practically "stable".

In the end, I think the 2nd or 3rd ( Centraal Station  M1  M5  29  N08  or Centraal Station  M1  M5 ) are ideal (as per the above). As you saw already, I think the metro symbol and separation of metro/bus is too much, especially in combination with the marker icons...

PS: Do bus routes really have colors in Brussels? Andree.sk (talk) 06:13, 7 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter, Andree.sk! I completely agree with your point of view, whenever I'm in a strange city, I also try to get around with metro and/or tram, and avoid bus transport since it's quite tedious and difficult to figure out. That's why the template encodes the type of transport: when you hover over any line, a tooltip will reveal the type of vehicle (metro, tram or bus). Although I'm aware of the fact that those tooltips won't be printed in PDFs of course... Anyway, I added all MIVB bus lines because some attractions can only be reached by bus in Brussels, for example the Royal Greenhouses are too far from the city center to walk, and can only realistically be reached with bus  53 . And yes, all bus lines also have their color codes, consisting of a characteristic background color and either a black or white foreground text displaying the line number. I support your suggestions, and would probably prefer the reduced line count version as to have the Noctis (late night bus lines) also included since they're convenient for party animals. ArticCynda (talk) 07:52, 7 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Wauteurz: What's your opinion on this matter, als public transport expert? ArticCynda (talk) 21:26, 19 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Firstly, I am not a 'public transport expert'. Public transit may have become the thing I do here and am known for nowadays, but {{Rint}} is moreso something I got myself involved in and cannot step down from (not that I want to either). RINT, however, was never meant for buses. The template, of which the full name is Rail-interchange, was, as the name somewhat implies, meant to index lines of guided public transport, so metros, commuter rail, light railways, trams and trolleybuses. In all fairness, I don't oppose adding bus lines to the template, but I wouldn't encourage it either. As to how to solve this situation, I'd like to refer to Dutch cities, which are documented here. The country has 15 railway operators, the 13 trolleybus lines of Arnhem, Amsterdam's 15 tramlines and 5 metro lines, Rotterdam's 11 tramlines and 5 metro lines, The Hague's 12 tram lines and Utrecht's two tram lines. These of course are not the only transport options there, they just have been reduced to that. Arnhem especially, has its trolleybus network fully integrated into the bus network. Nonetheless, the trolley network is the backbone of the city's public transport, as are the trams for Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague. Utrecht's network is more recent and consists of two lines at this time, but I believe more are to come. Either way, taking the Netherlands as an example, I would advise to pick out the ~10 lines that make up the backbone of Brussel's public bus transport, which, if not documented, can be made up by the most travelled lines. Adding night services are something I'd advise against for the simple reason that they're most always the same route as the 'day service' or two 'day services' connected to each other. You can add some information in the tooltip/mouseover text of the RINT listing (for illustration:  2  ), where you can say something like MIVB line (N)10 (start - terminus). I believe the limit for stations that can be added is 10, but Andree knows the exact limit ({{station}} is his project, after all). Using that as the maximum that can be added out of four metro lines, two premetro lines, 17 tram lines and ~10 (night)bus lines will clean up a whole lot and reduce the 'colouring book effect' in the process.

The busses may of course also be entirely omitted from the template, but from what I understand, buses in Brussels run alongside the tram network, making them highly travelled and a good alternative, whereas buses in the Netherlands are more often connections between towns or the outer rings of a large city. Quite obviously, I am not that well-known in Brussels, seen as how I have been there at most once when I was too young to remember. I think it's mostly up to you to bite the bullet here, but reducing the amount of buses listed will help a lot. From a glance, lines 12-21 and 27 seem to be the backbone, connecting to either intercity train stations or major airports. This would leave us with eight instead of 61 lines, which will definitely help a great deal. Again, trams and (pre)metro are the lines RINT is meant for, so I'd advise against removing any of those.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 09:00, 20 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Wauteurz, these are valuable insights! The situation in Brussels indeed appears to be different form the one in the Dutch cities because here bus lines are an integral part of the public transport network rather than a transport medium complementary to rail, as is the case in the Netherlands. So we're obliged to have bus lines included in Brussels since some of the most important attractions cannot be reached by train, metro or tram alone. ArticCynda (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Please remember that any and all addresses and alt names should be given in both French and Dutch, not just one or the other. We have several commented-out reminders, including one right at the top, but maybe they should be at the top of every section that has listings. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:31, 18 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

@ArticCynda: Please take note of this. You're currently only using Dutch. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:12, 19 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

You have a valid point, ThunderingTyphoons!, although we should think of a clean/proper way to do it rather than throwing in all names in all languages — that just makes it even more confusing, in my opinion. Experience with other bilingual cities/capitals (like Jerusalem being Arabic and Hebrew, and Sarajevo being Bosnian and Serb) taught us that throwing in too many localized names is contraproductive for the readability of the article. Most see/do attractions have a Wikidata link anyways, which can provide names for attractions in other languages if necessary.

If you have suggestions for a good and transparent bilingual solution, then please make a few proposals (like we did for the MIVB template, and add bilinguality to the roadmap. I don't think it should be a priority at this point though; it would anyway be a lot of work considering the very large number (over 100) of See/Do attractions. ArticCynda (talk) 20:25, 19 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think mainly it's the addresses that are important, since apparently the street signs are bilingual. I don't think having names in two languages instead of one is really going to make the article unreadable. Anyway, we don't necessarily have to convert all the existing listings; I was mainly getting your attention while you were adding new listings with only the Dutch. Although I favour bilingualism in the addresses, using only Dutch seems especially wrong in a majority Francophone city. Any new listings should at the very least have a bilingual address. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

I do think the quality of the article was less pleasant to read, more confusing, and less streamlined when it had billingual addresses mixed in with regular ones. Regardless, as I mentioned, other billingual capital cities such as Sarajevo, Jerusalem, and Nicosia also have bilingual street signs but no bilingual WV articles (according to Google Images, at least), so I see few reasons to implement such a system for Brussels if that is the dominant argument. ArticCynda (talk) 22:39, 19 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

The aim should be 100% bilingual addresses. There is already the confusing hotchpotch you're warning about, with some addresses bilingual, some just in Dutch and some in French. That is confusing, not a consistent standard where addresses are always in given in both languages. Submitting listings with monolingual Dutch addresses adds to this confusion rather than alleviates it. The solution to this, as I see it, is bilingual addresses as standard. Once that is complete, I would recommend doing the same for the names of some attractions, where appropriate. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:46, 19 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

I disagree that 100% bilinguality should be aimed for, because it clutters the article (making it less pleasant to read), and it is ultimately unnecessary. For instance, the OSM router will guide travelers to the correct address regardless whether the Dutch or French address is typed in, and the same is true for taxis. If travelers wish to receive mail then also either address is sufficient: I occasionally send stuff to a friend in Brussels, only write the Dutch address on the package, and it always gets delivered. Hence, there are few practical incentives to use bilingual addresses in a travel guide, and Wikivoyage doesn't aim to be a translation dictionary anyway.

As for your second point, names of attractions should be in English only, i.e. the name that an English speaking visitor would use to refer to the attraction in a conversation with their peers. The local name can optionally be mentioned as alt, see Helsinki/Central for a good example. In the interest of a clear article, I would strongly advise to also keep the local name short.

If you really want to have double addresses in the article, then a non-cluttering solution needs to be worked out for it. What do you think of a tooltip system similar to public transport (which displays the type of vehicle upon mouse over), where hovering over the Dutch address would display the French equivalent? I'm not a programmer, but I would think it can't be too hard for someone with the right skills to write such a template. It can then also be used in the bilingual cities mentioned above without affecting their readability at all. ArticCynda (talk) 08:57, 20 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

I agree with ArticCynda on this one, it's a great article so let's keep is streamlined. 46.233.77.17 17:39, 21 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for the delay in responding. I would be happy to support the idea of a hover-over template for bilingual cities, especially when one of the languages is not English, but someone actually creating it would be the challenge. However, the point that bilingual addresses may not be necessary is taken. One final question, is it definitely the case that every street name sign / public transport stop in Brussels is bilingual? Just that if we use a Dutch address and the street sign is only in French, that would cause problems when navigating without technology or local knowledge.

By the way, I was only ever talking about using the local names in the 'alt' section. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:08, 22 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the official point of view of the government is that every street name sign and public transport stop should be indicated bilingually. So if street name signs are present, they're always bilingual. All street names are also marked on OSM with their Dutch and French names, and so are public transport stops. For example, searching "Kapelaansstraat 8 brussels" on OSM points directly to the Beguinage Museum, as expected, despite the street name only being provided in Dutch. A few addresses are still missing from OSM, I noticed, so they'll have to be added to the map.

It is important to point out, however, that navigating through Brussels without technology or local knowledge is nearly impossible. Street name signs in Brussels are often missing, awkwardly placed, or vanalized to the point of being unreadable (and the same is true for most of Belgium, actually, see [1]). I've visited Brussels a few times and would dare to say I know the city fairly well, and it's even for the most adventurous traveller too much of a challenge to try to find addresses without a street atlas or technological aids. This is particularly true for POIs outside the Pentagon. In my experience, the only realistic ways to get around are with a handheld navigator such as OSM (or a printed map) if you're on a bike or by foot, or to get at least close enough with public transport (hence why I did the effort of putting in all metro, tram and bus lines in the city). ArticCynda (talk) 12:42, 22 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Quite a lot of the districts redlink and judging by the map, maybe some of the proposed districts should be merged... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:55, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Or plunge forward, create the missing district articles, and fill in the contents? ArticCynda (talk) 22:03, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

SERIOUSLY? Unless this is the official name of the neighborhood, we should not use such a name. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:11, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the Pub

First of all, the majority of the districts mentioned under Brussels#Districts redlink. Second of all, there is the extremely problematic district name "Ghetto", which I think should not be used unless that is in fact the official name or it has a historic justification (and even then, there is the question of whether to invoke said link). Third of all the district articles that do exist lack the rapid transit lines in the dynamic maps. I was going to fix that last one but I could not find the Wikidata thingy to put into the mapshapes template. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

User ArticCynda has set up a great map for Brussels recently. The districts on the map should be used instead of the ones in the article. This seems to be work in progress currently. "Ghetto" is a no-go for sure. The district named "Uccle" is also funny: "inhabited by those with more money than brains." Smells like vandalism. --Renek78 (talk) 21:19, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, and check out the description that was written about this district called "Ghetto":

"Residential area with a predominantly immigrant population, and internationally best known for its municipality Molenbeek as hatchery of the Islamic terrorists responsible for the Charlie Hebdo Paris terror attack, and the bombing of the Brussels metro and airport in 2016. Once playing an important commercial role in the city, the area is now infested with muslim terrorists, and a refuge for criminals of all trades. It is of little interest to the average traveler, but unfortunately needs to be traversed to get to other districts. Do not venture into the ghetto alone, and never go here at night!"

That description should be changed from "population" onwards so it doesn't have assumptions and opinions that can't be proven. Selfie City (talk) 21:31, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

So I did some research about the demographics of Brussels, and it's true that it has a pretty high Muslim population. But saying these are terrorists is getting really opinionated and could absolutely be considered stereotyping. Look at it this way: if "Ghetto" was 100% Muslim, and 10% of those were terrorists (which isn't the case), there are still 90% who aren't terrorists, so is it really "infested with" them?

And then saying "a refuge for criminals of all trades." Seriously? If there are danger-related concerns, describe them in the stay safe section, but don't just turn people against the area, unless it's really as dangerous as the description says. Selfie City (talk) 21:37, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Virtually no place in Europe is even as "bad" as the "worst" parts of several US cities. I think this was just one of the very opinionated "EVUL MUZZLIMZZ DESTOYIN' US" editors we get from time to time who want to insert stuff like "CRIMINAL GANGS OVERRUNNING TOWN!!!!!!" into numerous European destination guides. I think we should be more careful to catch stuff like that. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:51, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Hobbitschuster: as you're probably aware from the districtification roadmap, districtification for Brussels has just started, which is why most of the districts are still redlinks. Creating the corresponding articles and migrating listings is more helpful to resolve the problem than complaining about it, though.

@Renek78: thanks for the appreciation for the ongoing efforts! ArticCynda (talk) 21:58, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Well judging by the map I am not sure all the district borders do the best possible job in assembling a sufficient number of POIs per district. Maybe the number of districts is too high? And surely the "Ghetto" thing is some sort of very misplaced joke, isn't it? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:00, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I think the Ghetto section needs to change. But just take a look at this search about the topic and see all the headlines. I think there could be a little more to that description, although of course it's going too far. Selfie City (talk) 22:08, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Some people would call certain parts of Dresden a "ghetto" (albeit one with scarcely any immigrants), but we shouldn't. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:16, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

I've long held the opinion that district borders should be defined based on the personality of the district (dominant land use, look and feel, historic significance, ...) and not just based on their number or area. A predominantly industrial district of course doesn't have much listings, but that doesn't mean it should be merged with an adjacent residential district, for instance.

As a side note, Hobbitschuster, your concerns on district definitions are rather poorly timed, voicing them after a map has been drawn up. You've had 5 years to voice your opinion on districtification since PrinceGloria first raised the issue... ArticCynda (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

First of all, there is no deadline. Second of all, merging or splitting should not be all that hard. I did precisely that in Berlin; I even moved around a small part of one district to another more than once. If there are geotags, it's just a matter of looking at the map. Have a look at what I did with Berlin/South, which was a "all of the rest" district due to lack of POIs for a while before I did something about it... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

I find the comparison between Dresden and Brussels rather far fetched. Following Selfie Citys remark I checked sources, and pretty much all agree that the terrorists behind the Paris and Brussels bombings indeed originated from the Molenbeek ghetto. On the contrary for Dresden I can't find any evidence for such a link, so both cities are not comparable at all in my opinion. ArticCynda (talk) 22:27, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Murdered in Dresden. Originated in Dresden. No proven links to Dresden, but who knows?. Oh and don't forget this. I think it is folly from both sides to make it seem that either only "Muzzlimzz" are the only source of problems or that there is no problem whatsoever with radical islamism. There is however a huge issue with radical nationalism. And the Islamists on one hand and the fascists on the other are damn similar in many, many regards. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:40, 18 July 2018 (UTC) Anyway, that all is thoroughly besides the point. And quite frankly I also do not understand why this was swept here so fast, given that I put this pointer into the pub to alert more people than those who already have Brussels on their watch list (I, for one, do not) Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:55, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Whether islamists or fascists are similar or not is not very relevant to a travel guide. I support Selfie Citys point of view: if it's a ghetto (and evidence seems to point in that direction) then we should call it a ghetto to warn the traveler appropriately. Our primary objective should be to inform and/or warn the traveler, even if the Brussels ministery of tourism would undoubtely rather have all these articles removed from the Internet.

Meanwhile I've done further research and found these crime statistics from the Belgian federal police. It looks like the officially recorded incidents of violent robberies and pickpocketing (crimes relevant to the traveler) are indeed off the charts for Molenbeek. If you check the statistics for armed robberies in 2017, it's 10 times higher (that's 1000%) in Molenbeek than in the south (Watermaal), north east (Evere) or north west (Ganshoren) of Brussels. I'm not a mathematician, but that seems statistically significant. So combining the Google search results with crime statistics, it appears to me that the description of a crime infested ghetto is hardly an exaggeration. ArticCynda (talk) 23:01, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply