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Southern Europe
[edit source]I once said in the previous discussion that I wouldn't support any proposal to group any orphaned country in Europe other than the Southwestern Europe proposal. However, what if that article were converted into Southern Europe, covering Greece, Cyprus and Turkey as well? I have discovered this region while consolidating the Mediterranean Sea article. Of course, the Balkans would technically also belong to Southern Europe, but I have seen many cases where the Balkans are grouped separately from Southern Europe. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 03:18, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have drafted the regional breakdown at User:Sbb1413/Southern Europe. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 03:33, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- Hmm I'm torn on this one. On one hand, many visitors (at least from here) do typically tend to visit Greece and Türkiye on the same trip. However, I imagine once we start including Cyprus and Northern Cyprus, that's when things start to get very messy. I probably wouldn't include the Balkans in such a region just for the ease of simplicity. shb (t | c | m) 03:52, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- Greece, Cyprus and Türkiye are fine. However, Northern Cyprus is a self-governed region within Cyprus from a traveller's perspective (including the Turkish travellers who also consider the Republic of Cyprus like that). The article itself talks about the island rather than the state, which is called the "Republic of Cyprus", thus rendering Cyprus (island) redundant. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 04:04, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- It's more to do with travel between. You can't travel to the Republic of Cyprus from Turkiye by air, and you can't travel to Northern Cyprus from anywhere but Turkiye. But maybe a region could help cover the nuances of travelling between the four countries. //shb (t | c | m) 04:37, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have added a note regarding this under the "Get in" section of my proposal. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 05:29, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- It's more to do with travel between. You can't travel to the Republic of Cyprus from Turkiye by air, and you can't travel to Northern Cyprus from anywhere but Turkiye. But maybe a region could help cover the nuances of travelling between the four countries. //shb (t | c | m) 04:37, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- Greece, Cyprus and Türkiye are fine. However, Northern Cyprus is a self-governed region within Cyprus from a traveller's perspective (including the Turkish travellers who also consider the Republic of Cyprus like that). The article itself talks about the island rather than the state, which is called the "Republic of Cyprus", thus rendering Cyprus (island) redundant. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 04:04, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- Hmm I'm torn on this one. On one hand, many visitors (at least from here) do typically tend to visit Greece and Türkiye on the same trip. However, I imagine once we start including Cyprus and Northern Cyprus, that's when things start to get very messy. I probably wouldn't include the Balkans in such a region just for the ease of simplicity. shb (t | c | m) 03:52, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'm withdrawing this proposal in favour of the Eastern Mediterranean Europe, see #Moldova and Romania. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 09:46, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
Moldova and Romania
[edit source]
While these two are put under the Balkans for an understandable reason, the article itself states that Romania isn't entirely Balkan, and Moldova is considered Balkan only due to its cultural ties with Romania. Seems like these two articles should be put under Eastern Europe instead, which did not exist when the Balkans region was defined. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 03:58, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I don't think it's an improvement to group Romania with Russia and Belarus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:10, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's sounds a bit morbid. I think Romania does not belong to a specific region of Europe. Instead, its three regions belong to different European regions culturally: Transylvania to Central Europe, Moldavia to Eastern Europe, and Wallachia to the Balkans. Since Romania is a single country, I found no other way than grouping it entirely with Central or Eastern Europe. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 06:32, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'd support grouping Moldova (and Transnistria) under Eastern Europe, but not Romania. Romania is a Schengen country (in contrast to the other four (five)) and people are much less likely to visit Romania in conjunction with any of the other countries as part of a combined trip either. //shb (t | c | m) 06:41, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think Romania can be grouped with Central Europe instead, since Romania is a member of the EU and the Schengen Area, and the general definition of the Balkans excludes most of Romania. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:00, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- It's not really central, is it? In any case, since Moldova is a primarily ethnically, culturally and historically Romanian country that borders on Romanian Moldavia, it doesn't make a lot of sense to group it in a different region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:09, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I know that Moldova is Romanian in many ways. But due to the differences in Cold War history, as well as the current situation, Moldova and Romania may belong to different regions. Of course, If Moldova ever becomes a member of both the EU and the Schengen, we would regroup it with Romania under Central Europe, which doesn't have to be geographically "central" (the centre of Europe is actually in Lithuania), cf. the U.S. South, which does not include states like California and New Mexico. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:25, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think of Central Europe as a region that was the heartland of the Hapsburg Empire, plus Germany and Poland (which was divided between Austria, Prussia and Russia but is culturally Central European, in any case). So Austria, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Poland, Germany, and maybe Slovenia and Croatia. Transylvania used to be mostly Hungarian, with a very large German population, but do you really think of Romania as part of the same region as the others? Or does it fit more with Bulgaria, to its south? I also continue to disagree that Moldova is in a different region from Romania. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:49, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- When I visited Moldova and Transnistria, I did so from Romania. For the foreseeable future, visiting them from Ukraine is not practical. Moldova has elected a pro-EU government, and there is talk again of reintegration of Transnistria into Moldova, and of unification of Moldova with Romania. While this is just talk, having visited these countries in 2017, I think that the current hierarchy makes the most sense. Ground Zero (talk) 21:35, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- digressing as a geography nerd here, I get the feeling that Black Sea countries are not really Central Europe. I agree with GZ here, our current scheme works best with ttcf.
- BTW, I will never forget their perpetual inclusion and exclusion in "Latin Europe", which has been put in discussion so many times, oh no I won't. Ibaman (talk) 22:22, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- When I visited Moldova and Transnistria, I did so from Romania. For the foreseeable future, visiting them from Ukraine is not practical. Moldova has elected a pro-EU government, and there is talk again of reintegration of Transnistria into Moldova, and of unification of Moldova with Romania. While this is just talk, having visited these countries in 2017, I think that the current hierarchy makes the most sense. Ground Zero (talk) 21:35, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'd oppose making Central Europe larger than it already is, or if we do, I'd rather group the DACH countries under a separate subregion. There's already way too many countries listed under Central Europe and listing Romania (which would then perhaps maybe warrant also moving Bulgaria) would only add to the long list. //shb (t | c | m) 04:12, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think of Central Europe as a region that was the heartland of the Hapsburg Empire, plus Germany and Poland (which was divided between Austria, Prussia and Russia but is culturally Central European, in any case). So Austria, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Poland, Germany, and maybe Slovenia and Croatia. Transylvania used to be mostly Hungarian, with a very large German population, but do you really think of Romania as part of the same region as the others? Or does it fit more with Bulgaria, to its south? I also continue to disagree that Moldova is in a different region from Romania. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:49, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I know that Moldova is Romanian in many ways. But due to the differences in Cold War history, as well as the current situation, Moldova and Romania may belong to different regions. Of course, If Moldova ever becomes a member of both the EU and the Schengen, we would regroup it with Romania under Central Europe, which doesn't have to be geographically "central" (the centre of Europe is actually in Lithuania), cf. the U.S. South, which does not include states like California and New Mexico. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:25, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- It's not really central, is it? In any case, since Moldova is a primarily ethnically, culturally and historically Romanian country that borders on Romanian Moldavia, it doesn't make a lot of sense to group it in a different region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:09, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think Romania can be grouped with Central Europe instead, since Romania is a member of the EU and the Schengen Area, and the general definition of the Balkans excludes most of Romania. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:00, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'd support grouping Moldova (and Transnistria) under Eastern Europe, but not Romania. Romania is a Schengen country (in contrast to the other four (five)) and people are much less likely to visit Romania in conjunction with any of the other countries as part of a combined trip either. //shb (t | c | m) 06:41, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's sounds a bit morbid. I think Romania does not belong to a specific region of Europe. Instead, its three regions belong to different European regions culturally: Transylvania to Central Europe, Moldavia to Eastern Europe, and Wallachia to the Balkans. Since Romania is a single country, I found no other way than grouping it entirely with Central or Eastern Europe. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 06:32, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- Seems like Moldova and Romania can't be grouped with Central Europe either, and given its ties with Bulgaria, I think this hierarchy should be kept as it is. If that's the case, I think the Balkans region should be renamed to "Southeastern Europe". Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 04:31, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Regarding the DACH countries of Central Europe, I suggest "German Europe" for the subregion. This would prevent Central Europe from having a long list, allowing countries like Croatia to be grouped with Central Europe. Of course, DACH won't be a separate region, just a subregion in Central Europe. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 04:39, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'm fine with calling the Balkans "Southeastern Europe" if others prefer that, but in that case, wouldn't Greece be geographically part of it? As for DACH, I had to look it up. If we're grouping countries that are mostly German-speaking, the region would be not just Germany, Austria and (more questionably) Switzerland but also Liechtenstein and Luxembourg, but Luxembourg is traditionally grouped with Belgium and the Netherlands as Benelux. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I wouldn't consider Luxembourg a German-speaking country – a majority of people nowadays there use French over German or Luxembourgish. DACH for the most part only really refers to Germany, Austria and Switzerland (which by virtue also includes Liechtenstein). (and btw if you were wondering why it's called DACH and not German Europe...it's exactly the reason you mention for Switzerland) //shb (t | c | m) 07:29, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, Greece, Cyprus and Turkiye would be grouped with Southeastern Europe in this case, and it would be a long list. However, that long list can be manageable by having a subheading "West Balkans" for ex-Yugoslav nations + Albania. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:40, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think it's more pragmatic that the Balkans are left as-is and a completely separate subregion is created for Greece, Turkiye, Cyprus and Northern Cyprus. Just because more people travel in this region within or do major trips completely within these two countries (and Cyprus for the lack of a better region). The type of tourism to Greece and Turkiye is also very different to that seen in the Balkans too tbh. //shb (t | c | m) 08:25, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I once proposed "Eastern Mediterranean" for that particular region, but many pointed out that it could be confused with the Levant region. So, I think "Eastern Mediterranean (Europe)" would be a better name, specifically indicating that it only covers the European section of the Eastern Mediterranean. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:43, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Sounds good; I think I'd prefer Eastern Mediterranean Europe (with a natural disambiguator), though. //shb (t | c | m) 09:42, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I thought Luxembourgish was a form of German. I see that until very recently, it was: "Luxembourgish was considered a German dialect like many others until about World War II but then the language underwent ausbau, creating its own standard form in vocabulary, grammar, and spelling and therefore is seen today as an independent language" (w:Luxembourgish). Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Sounds good; I think I'd prefer Eastern Mediterranean Europe (with a natural disambiguator), though. //shb (t | c | m) 09:42, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I once proposed "Eastern Mediterranean" for that particular region, but many pointed out that it could be confused with the Levant region. So, I think "Eastern Mediterranean (Europe)" would be a better name, specifically indicating that it only covers the European section of the Eastern Mediterranean. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:43, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think it's more pragmatic that the Balkans are left as-is and a completely separate subregion is created for Greece, Turkiye, Cyprus and Northern Cyprus. Just because more people travel in this region within or do major trips completely within these two countries (and Cyprus for the lack of a better region). The type of tourism to Greece and Turkiye is also very different to that seen in the Balkans too tbh. //shb (t | c | m) 08:25, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- "German Europe" would be very controversial, or even offensive, because of the events of the 20th century. It is also a term that would not be immediately understood by readers. Ground Zero (talk) 09:52, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- That's a great point! We need to avoid seeming like we're emulating the AfD here! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:58, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Which is why if we are to divide Central Europe, DACH is a better (and more favourable) term than German Europe. Though I doubt it actually needs to be split right now. //shb (t | c | m) 10:10, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I agree with "DACH". Will be adding section headings for subregions on Central Europe and the Balkans soon. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 10:15, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- A re-structuring of European regions should include Southwestern Europe, which is now an extra-hierarchical region. The first draft was called "Latin Europe"; the name was changed as Romania and Moldova also have Romance majority languages. /Yvwv (talk) 11:05, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have never, ever heard of "DACH". Let's not use terms that will confuse readers. And please don't start changing the hietarchy or adding headings while a discussion is underway. Please wait for consensus. Two people is not a consensus. Ground Zero (talk) 11:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Ok, I have just added headings, not changing any established hierarchy, as headings can be reverted more easily. Let's focus on some concrete discussions. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 11:23, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, let's bot disrupt things by making arbitrary changes during the discussion. Ground Zero (talk) 11:27, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I only support splitting up Central Europe if Romania were to be added – but because Romania hasn't, I don't think it's necessary. //shb (t | c | m) 11:42, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I had never heard of DACH before yesterday, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:07, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
- I only support splitting up Central Europe if Romania were to be added – but because Romania hasn't, I don't think it's necessary. //shb (t | c | m) 11:42, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, let's bot disrupt things by making arbitrary changes during the discussion. Ground Zero (talk) 11:27, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Ok, I have just added headings, not changing any established hierarchy, as headings can be reverted more easily. Let's focus on some concrete discussions. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 11:23, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have never, ever heard of "DACH". Let's not use terms that will confuse readers. And please don't start changing the hietarchy or adding headings while a discussion is underway. Please wait for consensus. Two people is not a consensus. Ground Zero (talk) 11:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- A re-structuring of European regions should include Southwestern Europe, which is now an extra-hierarchical region. The first draft was called "Latin Europe"; the name was changed as Romania and Moldova also have Romance majority languages. /Yvwv (talk) 11:05, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I agree with "DACH". Will be adding section headings for subregions on Central Europe and the Balkans soon. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 10:15, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Which is why if we are to divide Central Europe, DACH is a better (and more favourable) term than German Europe. Though I doubt it actually needs to be split right now. //shb (t | c | m) 10:10, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- That's a great point! We need to avoid seeming like we're emulating the AfD here! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:58, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'm fine with calling the Balkans "Southeastern Europe" if others prefer that, but in that case, wouldn't Greece be geographically part of it? As for DACH, I had to look it up. If we're grouping countries that are mostly German-speaking, the region would be not just Germany, Austria and (more questionably) Switzerland but also Liechtenstein and Luxembourg, but Luxembourg is traditionally grouped with Belgium and the Netherlands as Benelux. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Regarding the DACH countries of Central Europe, I suggest "German Europe" for the subregion. This would prevent Central Europe from having a long list, allowing countries like Croatia to be grouped with Central Europe. Of course, DACH won't be a separate region, just a subregion in Central Europe. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 04:39, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
Eastern Mediterranean Europe
[edit source]Discussions on Eastern Mediterranean Europe will come here. Currently it's an extraregion, but it could be part of a hierarchy if there's a solid consensus on it. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 11:24, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- It is strange that Greece, Turkey and the Cypruses are not part of a region of Europe, but are just listed on their own. I support the E.M.E. proposal unless someone can think of a more concise name. Ground Zero (talk) 11:47, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- Since there's no opposition to this name and region, let's implement this region as a part of the Europe hierarchy slowly but steadily. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 12:47, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
Southwestern Europe
[edit source]Discussions on Southwestern Europe will come here. Currently it's an extraregion, but it could be part of a hierarchy if there's a solid consensus on it. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 11:26, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I don't support adding this to the hierarchy. France and Italy are two of the biggest tourist destinations in the world. I think they should remain at the top level of the Europe hierarchy, rather than creating a mega region covering a third of the continent. Ground Zero (talk) 11:49, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
- I agree with GZ. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:07, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
- Also agree with Ground Zero and Ikan Kekek. Also from a practicality perspective too – getting between Iberia, France and Italy overland isn't as easy as it is to get between different countries in Central Europe. //shb (t | c | m) 06:29, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
- I agree with GZ. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:07, 16 April 2026 (UTC)