Wikivoyage talk:Nigeria Expedition

Swept in from the pub

We have now passed the halfway mark with the Nigeria Expedition and thought it would be a good time to check-in and provide some feedback to everyone involved. Pinging @Timmylegend, James Moore200, Haylad:. It was a great idea to make it a competition with shopping vouchers as prizes for the top 5 contributors.

Overall, this is the first time the English Wikivoyage has had a large influx of new, enthusiastic editors since the 2018 Editathon and it has been a resounding success. The number of Nigerian articles on Wikivoyage has doubled within a few weeks and many older articles have been significantly expanded.

One of the issues we initially saw was editors copying and pasting large slabs of information either from Wikipedia or another source, not providing attribution to the source and just as importantly not summarising or paraphrasing the content. Even if attribution is provided, paraphrasing is critical to make the content original but also make the content relevant to the theme of this wiki which is travel. This leads on to the second point where many editors at the beginning were adding content which was out of scope. Sometimes the content was relevant but was not meant to have its own article under our policies (like bus terminals which should be incorporated into city articles) while at other times the content was not relevant at all like primary schools.

Fortunately, after some mentoring and guidance, nearly all editors have a better understanding of what is allowed on Wikivoyage and are improving the quality of their edits. But it would be useful to remind everyone again. Another thing we would like to see is the editors starting to use the listing templates more often. But this is not as important as the other points as the more experienced editors here can convert the information into listings themselves.

Because of the boom in the number of articles, we're at the stage where we can consider creating articles on Nigerian states, particularly from the southern regions. That seems to be where most of the new editors are from. The states can probably be covered in a lot of detail unlike the current higher level regions which appear to arbitrary. Gizza ^(roam) 01:06, 18 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Gizza, thanks for posting this. The Nigeria Expedition has really been a big success already in Wikivoyage. Congratulations to the contributors who have been involved. Ground Zero (talk) 01:12, 18 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Are you guys interested in creating a Nigeria Expedition page on Wikivoyage? We can incorporate statistics and other information into the page to make the goals of the expedition easier to accomplish. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:05, 18 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Sounds like a good idea to me. Kudos to all our Nigerian contributors! It's great that you all have stayed for this long and continued to contribute wonderful content! I look forward to seeing further improvements to this site's coverage of Africa's most populous country! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:54, 18 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'm more than happy to start one. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:41, 18 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hello @DaGizza, SHB2000, Ikan Kekek, SelfieCity, Ground Zero: Thank you all for your kind words.

Thank you for the comprehensive feedback on how to improve going forward. We would also like to know if there are other wmflab tools that could help make the work easier. We are interested in creating a Nigeria Expedition page on Wikivoyage. This will help to incorporate all the statistics about the current state of the coverage of Wikivoyage on Nigerian destinations and also to work on the scope we are yet to cover. Timmylegend (talk) 12:10, 18 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hi @DaGizza, SHB2000, Ikan Kekek, SelfieCity, Ground Zero: Thanking you all for your kind words, I am also in support of Nigeria Expedition as @Timmylegend: has mentioned. I believe if we( the Organizers of the Nigerian Expedition Contest) do possess more knowledge and skills we would be able to train the participants in the contest effectively, the facilitation of our future projects will be done with little or no major errors. I would be hoping if we can have a Call session with you guys on how we can effectively train new members on how to use some Wikivoyage tools such as the Wikivoyage Districtfier. You can also help us answer some questions we have been asked during our previous training sessions. A popular question some of our new members asked is how do you verify the content on Wikivoyage and Why should the content be trusted since there is an absence of Reference? I hope to hear a good response from you all moving forward. Haylad (talk) 14:08, 18 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Haylad: The answer to the popular question is trust. Wikivoyage usually doesn't need references since the contributor is the source. But in all honesty, thanks for setting this expedition up, and I reckon that I've never stayed up til 0030 for editing (and it's 0013 in my local time zone at the time of my comment) and this is all because I enjoy working with new people - and this has given me a lot more experience at my time here on en.wv. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:15, 18 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

The way trust or verifiability forms on Wikivoyage is complicated. As SHB2000 says, one part is that the editors themselves are the source. If you look at the bottom of each article, you will see the list of usernames who contributed to the article. This is something you don't see on Wikipedia. What is regarded as "original research" on Wikipedia is allowed here. You can become a docent (self-declared expert of an area) or even so add your personal experiences. Another part is that we do allow sourcing in edit summaries and on talk pages. Like all wikis, there will be disputes. Two editors may disagree about the level of crime in a particular city. Here it is expected they provide sources to substantiate their view but it will be confined to the talk pages. That makes the main article look clean. Also when facts are not disputed, we assume good faith and trust each other. Lastly, we do actually use primary sources in a sense. When we add details about a museum, restaurant or something else, we add the website as a link and summarise the content found on the website in the listing. Especially non-touty information like prices, hours and so on. But as stated earlier, we don't just rely on the website but personal experience and other websites (aggregators, review sites, Wikipedia) as well. Gizza ^(roam) 06:52, 19 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

• There is now a page at Wikivoyage:Nigeria Expedition. I will add the statistics shortly. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:22, 18 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@DaGizza, Haylad:With regard to Gizza's suggestion that "we're at the stage where we can consider creating articles on Nigerian states", South West Nigeria is at this stage now, thanks to the hard work of the Nigerian team. It has a lot of articles with useful travel information. The other regions don't need to be broken up yet, though. Creating state articles under one region doesn't mean we have to do it for all regions. The state articles in other regions should be created when there are enough city articles in each one. Ground Zero (talk) 12:47, 21 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero, DaGizza: I will inform the community members about it, I feel we should indicate on the Nigeria Article page that articles for states in Southern Nigeria can be created. Do you guys think you will be able to participate in online training with some Nigerian Wikivoyagers?Haylad (talk) 16:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero, Haylad: I have divided South West Nigeria into articles for each of the South West Nigerian states. When the new contributors feel ready, general information (as opposed to listings) should be added to these region articles. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:09, 21 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@SelfieCity, Ground Zero, Haylad, Timmylegend: my question is whether we still need the "South West Nigeria" page or should we incorporate it in the relevant state articles. If they're its own state, wouldn't this be acting as an "extra-hierarchal" sort of region? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:27, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@SelfieCity, Ground Zero, SHB2000, Timmylegend:, I feel the "South West Nigeria" page should be a stand alone article, The articles for state should be Incorpoarated in it. It should serve as an extra hierarchal region to states.Haylad (talk) 09:56, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

If all the states have 6–9 city articles, that would mean some 50 cities in South West Nigeria (+ national parks & al), making it mostly a long list. On the other hand, putting the states in Nigeria would make for a similarly long list of states there. We use subregions to get the number of entries in each article down to a manageable level. Sometimes there is little to tell on some of the intermediate levels (here: country division or state level), but that is seldom a big problem. Extra regions are a separate beast, they are for well-known regions that extend across our region borders and don't fit into the hierarchy. These regions do fit. –LPfi (talk) 11:51, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

As an example of what LPfi is describing, we have American Southwest, which is part of our hierarchy of the USA. It is composed of four states (Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah), and serves the same navigation function as our Southwest Nigeria region. Ground Zero (talk) 12:02, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@LPfi, Ground Zero:, I think what you are suggesting works well with me. I am referring to the existing structure on the Southwest Nigeria page.Haylad (talk) 12:58, 26 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero: I think I forgot that most countries have subregions but since I don't edit much outside of Australian and French articles, I easily forgot. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:24, 27 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000, SelfieCity, DaGizza, Ikan Kekek: User:Timmylegend has organized a Zoom call with the Nigerian team tomorrow, Sunday at 9PM Nigerian time (GMT+1), which Sunday at 4PM in North America's Eastern Time Zone, and Monday at 6AM in Australia's Eastern time zone. It seems that I am the only experienced editor who is available to participate.

It would be very helpful to have another experienced editor or two who would have a knowledge of Wikivoyage that is different from mine to be able to address a broader range of questions. I recognize that it is an awkward time for Australians, but since you have nowhere else to be right now, maybe you'd get up early for this. It could be the highlight of your day.

Timmylegend has specifically raised these questions by email -- if you have any comments on these, you could email me, or reply here.

"We would like to have a proper understanding of the other types of articles that can be created on Wikivoyage apart from towns and cities, and ways to engage participants of the recently concluded contest to keep on contributing to Wikivoyage as well as ways to promote the use of Wikivoyage in Nigeria as a travel guide (it could be great if there's a tool to access the page views for articles on Nigerian destinations)."

Ground Zero (talk) 17:38, 10 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'd like to explain why I haven't replied to the Doodle poll for this. I've had a respiratory illness lately (not COVID - negative test on Wednesday). I just texted in sick for work tomorrow afternoon. I'll see how I feel and whether I'm awake at 4 tomorrow. But it sounds like the agenda is fairly simple: explain park articles, itineraries, travel topics and phrasebooks - and possibly also dive guides. Of those, travel topics are the hardest to explain. I would suggest for whomever is on the call to do screen shares of star, or if more relevant somehow, good guide-level articles in each category and also the article template pages for each article type (and maybe also the quick versions - so for example Wikivoyage:Park article template and Wikivoyage:Quick park article template). All the star articles are linked here, and all the guide articles are linked here. Star-level itineraries: Along the Magnificent Mile, Historic Churches of Buffalo's East Side, Loop Art Tour, Yaowarat and Phahurat Tour. Star-level park articles: Big Bend National Park, Isle Royale National Park, Sydney Harbour National Park, Yosemite National Park, Zion National Park. Star-level travel topics: Chicago skyline guide, Retiring abroad. Star-level phrasebook: Russian phrasebook. Whoever is participating should also find out whether there are any divers among our Nigerian members. If there are, it should be pointed out that dive guides are also on-topic for Wikivoyage, and there are six star dive guides for different areas off the Cape Peninsula in South Africa (under "D" at the above link). Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: thanks for your input. I will pass this along. I hope you have a speedy recovery. Ground Zero (talk) 00:56, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: sorry to hear that you're feeling unwell. Hope you have a speedy recovery! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:08, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero: as much as I'd like to participate, 06:00 tomorrow morning for me will be quite hard. There's some tram works going on in my area, but it only really affects me at night. Additionally, due to some family issues relating to my grandmother, you may have also noticed that my editing activities here have reduced.

On top of all the mess here, I've lost my voice due to the cold here (not COVID, just the cold) and I've found it quite energy consuming to just edit. Quite some energy needed for a zoom call. I'll also probably be on a break for a longer period as well.

I'll try my best to see whether I can attend, but at this stage, it's looking unlikely.

--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:09, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

It will be a challenging time for me to attend likewise. I will be happy to participate in a follow-up session perhaps in a month or so when I will have more free time. I will be active in July but it will be erratic due to other commitments. I believe there is merit in these types of sessions. Rangan Datta Wiki organised a workshop for Indian editors (especially those based in Kolkata) last year and I think it was beneficial although I unfortunately don't see many of those participants still editing here. Gizza ^(roam) 02:54, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Ground Zero. I hope the meeting is a success! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:18, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Also, would this meeting be recorded? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Really sorry as I've been excited for this project, but at that time I don't think I'll be able to attend. Hopefully you all enjoy the meeting! --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:05, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000, SelfieCity, DaGizza, Ikan Kekek: it is too bad you weren't able to join us. I enjoyed it. I hope that it was useful for User:Timmylegend and colleagues. There were good questions, and we had a good discussion about travel topics, and the unclear rules we have about what qualifies as deserving an article. I was sorry that I had to end the discussion after an hour because of another commitment. I would have enjoyed talking to them longer. Ground Zero (talk) 23:41, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I realized that I didn't have the Zoom link, had I chosen to participate at the last minute, but anyway, I'd encourage anyone to post followup questions here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:53, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000: Are you sure we need state articles for this region? Each article would have only 1-3 existing city articles in it. That adds more structure without adding more content. Ground Zero (talk) 01:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Okay, so maybe I was comparing it to the Northern Territory of Australia which has less cities. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:15, 12 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

The Northern Territory is split into three regions (with the number of existing city/other destination articles): Top End (10), Barkly Tableland (3), Red Centre (10). Barkly Tableland is sparse, but the other two have quite a lot of articles.

What would be achieved by splitting North Central Nigeria's 16 existing articles between 7 states? Ground Zero (talk) 02:32, 12 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I think it's not worth it giving a fourth thought about it. I was maybe thinking that those would expand, but I don't think it will now, since the competitions over and we don't have any active Nigerian editors here (that is not Timmylegend or Haylad). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I hope that we will continue to see more Nigeria articles, and that eventually we will see a need to split up the other regions as happened with South West Nigeria, but there is no point splitting up regions until we have more city articles. That competition had a fantastic impact on participation in Wikivoyage. I wish it could continue. Ground Zero (talk) 02:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

Haylad has suggested, a couple of times, setting up a training call with the Nigerian contributors, and hasn't received a response. That is not good form on our part. My hesitation comes from feeling that I am not well placed to answer questions on the technical or coding side of things. For example, one of the keen Nigerians wanted advice on creating page banners -- I think I had been contributing for about four years before I started doing that.

I am wondering if there might be another way of supporting the Nigerian team, e.g., by setting up a "Nigeria cafe", where local experts can share information and post questions, and experienced non-Nigerian editors can provide advice. It would work like the Wikivoyage:Arrivals lounge, but provide a space that is specific to the Nigerian team. Any comments? Ground Zero (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Sure, if it'll help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

I thought that Haylad was suggesting a real-time discussion, like a Zoom meeting. This is a fairly common approach in many countries. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:53, 26 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Yes, he did. I explained my reticence and proposed an alternative. If there are other experienced editors willing to participate, I would be willing to join in. Ground Zero (talk) 18:52, 26 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'd be willing to join, but I think doing something similar to the Arrivals Lounge like GZ mentioned is better in my opinion so we don't have the time zone issue. (for some of us, it might be 23:00 if it's happening at 12:00, but I think if it's a zoom meeting, I probably won't be joining due to my timezone) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:42, 27 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Same about the timezone. I just experienced this responding to one of the contributors. Let’s go ahead with the Arrivals Lounge idea. Any thoughts on the name? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 10:23, 27 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

To me, I don't mind staying up til 01:00 or later, but it is only until our snap lockdown is over for us. And by then, my winter break would be over meaning that I'd really be exhausted the next day.

This would work for people in the time zones between -5 and +5, but really, beyond that, I don't think it would work for the majority of us, living outside these time zones. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:14, 27 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Staying up to 0:00 is pretty late for me, and I don't do anything on the computer that late (I prefer to contribute earlier in the day when time allows). So like you say, let's set up a discussion forum. We do, however, need to encourage them to use it. Most of the Nigerian contributors have been busy writing articles, and only participate in discussions when asked questions directly. It's great to see how focused they are with regard to writing travel content. However, some of the Nigerian contributors are reaching forms of contribution that require more assistance and direction, so we need to encourage them to ask questions.

I suggest that we start writing checklists for more complicated tasks. Of course, these might not ultimately be used depending on what contributions they make, but they would save us having to explain processes to a number of users multiple times. Examples of checklists could include cropping page banners, adding city markers, getting an article to guide status (where to focus energies etc.), collecting geo coordinates — I'm sure I've missed some (Wikivoyage:Collaboration of the month used to have quite a few good ones). These could probably come in handy with non-Nigerian users as well. It's just a thought, and it might not work well, but it could help us perfect how to explain certain tasks on Wikivoyage. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:53, 27 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Another suggestion is possibly expanding the expedition, and we'll see if I and a couple of other users here can get mass messager rights so we can possibly auto message them about new initiatives (like what SC mentioned), which could possibly go with the the Nigeria cafe? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC).Reply

@SHB2000, SelfieCity, Ikan Kekek, Ground Zero: I think the name Nigeria cafe works well with me as suggested by GZ. As regards the call, we understand the timezone issues, we plan on setting up a doodle form for you guys to fill, the individuals that their time zone works with us will join the call. We the organisers of the Nigerian Expedition are ready to stay up late during a weekend as we have some questions and we do need guidance. For instance, I saw this video on how to use the districtifier, but I don't understand the role it plays on Wikivoyage. Also, a contributor created an article on a Nigerian Airport and it was deleted, we want to know what information are necessary for a Nigerian airport article to not be deleted. I am looking forward to getting your emails so as to fill the doodle forms. We plan on collating the different questions from the contributors and ask them during the sessions, probably share the recorded sessions with them. We plan to be flexible, so you guys can share your ideas on what you think can work. fingers crossed. Haylad (talk) 21:36, 27 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Possibly an unpopular opinion, but I believe that Wikivoyage talk:Nigeria Expedition (currently uncreated and empty) would be a good place to hold the conversations with Nigeria contributors. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 22:04, 27 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000, SelfieCity, Ikan Kekek, Ground Zero: As Haylad has rightly stated, we would be willing to join the call at a time convenient for the experienced community members, this can easily be obtained through a doodle poll. Timmylegend (talk)

@Timmylegend: the problem lies within most of our time zones. We can be as flexible as we want, but we can't really fit everyone's time zones in. For example, if you put it at lets say 22:00 (UTC), for some of us, it will be 17:00 and that'll work for the majority. But for the minority (i.e. myself and DaGizza), it would be 10:00 which wouldn't really work. If we were going to do a zoom, I suggest doing one that fits most of us, and not focusing on the minorities so much. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

I think the suggestion of SHB2000 is what we should go with though I'd really want every experienced members to be involved but that might not really be practical.

Godstime Elijah (talk) 06:33, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

It is not that practical since I usually edit when everyones asleep, with Ikan occasionally making some edits at 0400 in his timezone. But usually everyone else edits at a similar time, it's just me and DaGizza who are just outliers here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

I think it would be a lot easier if everyone posted questions they had on a discussion board here and we answered the questions for everyone's benefit. Another positive aspect of that is that it's easier for us to refer to and link pages that way than in real time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:43, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

so should I continue working on Draft:Nigeria café? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:17, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

I think it was agreed that that would be a good idea. A single post by me, even if it was in clear opposition to such a board (which this is not), shouldn't carry too much weight with you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:20, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

The Nigeria cafe is a very great idea that would help Nigerian contributors in the long term to navigate contributing to Wikivoyage. However, the call would help in the short term, and maybe two or three experienced contributors could attend and just share their knowledge and experiences. As we have another project supported by a project grant and we would like to promote Wikivoyage in Africa next year and maybe make a presentation at this year Wiki Indaba (African) virtual conference.Timmylegend (talk) 10:28, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

A number of experienced editors in Europe and possibly the east coast of North America should be in timezones which don't different greatly from Nigeria. There are also some active editors based in Southern Africa but they don't get involved much with the non-content parts of Wikivoyage. Gizza ^(roam) 10:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000: based on the feedback from Haylad and Timmylegend, you should move the Nigeria cafe you developed to the main space, and we can post messages on the talk pages of the Nigerian contributors to make them aware of it. (Thank you for setting this up.)

@Haylad: I can't help on the question about the districtifier. I don't know anything about that. (This is why I am hesitant to join a call -- I don't know everything.)

With regard to airports, the community decided to have articles only on very large airports (see Wikivoyage:Airport Expedition). I think this decision was made to ensure that we are focused on those airports where we can provide useful travel advice and keep it up to date. Wikipedia has articles on most airports, and we don't need to reproduce those articles here.

If you are willing to try to set up a call, and a few editors with a broad range of skills are available, I would join the call. I will send you my email address. Ground Zero (talk) 12:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero: is there any mass messager rights here that I can use temporarily? But I may as well start sending out the word about the café out now. Regardless, the cafés done, and have I missed anything? (and please tell me if I should choose better header colours. I took it from m:User talk:SHB2000, but hope it looks good.) Cheers, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:57, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000: No. Leaderboard (talk) 14:12, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Leaderboard: seems like only the english wikipedia seems to have that special right. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:28, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000: At least Meta-Wiki also has it. Leaderboard (talk) 14:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

How did I forget the parent of all WMF projects? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:38, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero:, Thank you for your response, I understand no one is a custodian of all the Knowledge here. I have a better understanding of the Airport consensus now. My team and I are willing to set up the call. Is there a way I will receive your mail privately without writing my mail address here? I think there is a wiki tool for receiving private emails, please let me know if I have to share my email address here. Haylad (talk) 14:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Haylad: there's Special:EmailUser/Ground Zero which will privately email GZ here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:24, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Additionally, is User:SHB2000/NCO a good welcome message? I'd like someone to review it first, so it looks somewhat neutral and warm welcoming. I might not have wrote it properly since it's 00:27 in my time zone right now (and I can't concentrate properly this late (or early) at night). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:28, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Also, you can edit it if you need to. I don't mind people editing my pages just not my userpage (and IPs editing my main talk page). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:34, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

That's a good welcome message, saying what needs to be said. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:39, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Okay I'll start to add invitation messages to all of them. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:45, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

I've done all that I can think of, deliberately excluding Timmylegend, Haylad and Godstime Elijah since they're the one's who initiated this. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 15:03, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hello everyone, thanks for the support so far.

Here's the link to a doodle poll to select a time suitable for a call with Nigerian contributors. Kind regards. Timmylegend (talk) 12:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hi, everyone. I believe that this has been one of the most successful expeditions Wikivoyage has ever hosted. However, it appears that quite a few articles started by participants in this expedition have including copyright violation, especially but not exclusively in "Understand" sections, and particularly "History" subsections of that section. It's very important for any of you who have not read Wikivoyage:Copyleft to read it carefully, and some of you who may have given a cursory look at it should probably review it. The short version is that copy-pasting from pages with a copyright notice on them is not allowed, and copy-pasting may be done from Wikipedia, when appropriate for Wikivoyage style, but only with credit in edit summaries or on the relevant Wikivoyage article's "talk" page. You also need to give credit in the same way to copyrighted sources that you summarize or do a bit of paraphrasing from. I'd be more than happy to answer any questions any of you have about Wikivoyage's copyleft/copyright policy, but keep in mind that the site doesn't want to get sued for copyright violation and neither do any individual users. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:46, 28 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

This is not restricted to pages with a copyright notice: with few exceptions, any page is copyrighted by just being created. So never just copy. Facts are not copyrightable, but the used wording is, and it is often valuable to know from where some fact is fetched. –LPfi (talk) 20:45, 28 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

It is great to see so many new travel articles, and so much content being added to existing articles, but there are so "problem articles" being created as part of the current expedition. The point of Wikivoyage is to provide information to people visiting a place, not to be just another encyclopedia of information. Wikipedia is a great encyclopedia, and Wikivoyage should not try to compete with it, but try to be something different.

• Aniocha, Jimba Oja, Gambari, Kosofe, Magboro, Odogunyan — these articles are completely blank: they only provide the article title.
• Lisa, Jagunna, Abeloju, Ojoolu, Agbado, Ifon, Ogijo, Odogbolu, Isaye, Iju, Ago-iwoye, — these articles have only the skeleton subheadings. They often do not even identify the region the town is in.
• Giade, Zaki, Gamawa, Kirfi, Darazo, Shira, Warji, Tafawa Balewa, Toro, Dass — these articles provide no information about the town, but just information copied from other articles about nearby airports and about mobile service.
• Ogere — this article was created with text copied from the Wikipedia article, without attribution. The copied text provides some detailed history, but no information on how to get there, what to see and where to eat, drink or sleep. It isn't a travel article.

I understand that many of these articles are being created for a competition. It is unfortunate that someone who spends time to create a useful article about a town gets 2 points, while someone who spends less time to create 5 non-travel articles like those above gets 10 points.

If editors are planning to come back to add travel information to these articles, it will be a good result for Wikivoyage. Unfortunately, we have seen so many editors who have created lots of articles and then lose interest and never add travel information.

The articles listed above could be deleted without any loss to Wikivoyage. They really should not quality for points in the competition. Comments? Ground Zero (talk) 21:13, 29 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

I left a message for an editor who has created a lot of skeleton or blank articles on his talk page asking if he is planning to add travel content to them. He did not respond, but created two more skeleton articles, Ode remo and Ethiope.

The Wikivoyage way of dealing with these problem articles is to delete them. I would rather see content added to them, but if that doesn't happen, I will delete them.

@Edriiic: Do you think that these articles should qualify for your competition? Ground Zero (talk) 12:05, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero: Thanks for the observation, I have actually passed the information on the WhatsApp group about issues like this, and they agreed to it, although I haven’t seen actions from the article creators to improve the articles at fault, but I still want to give credit for delay to the fact that the contest ends in January 31st, hopefully they will improve such articles. I already told them, that they should rather focus on the quality of what they put out, than quantity, as no point will be awarded for any skeleton article. Will post any update. Edriiic (talk) 21:31, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Edriiic: thank you very much for your intervention. The editor I mention above has finally responded. Although he is not very happy about the scrutiny, I am hoping that he will start to focus on adding travel information instead of only on article creation. Ground Zero (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero @Ikan KekekI want to thank you guys for your patience with the new editors, I am really grateful for everything you do for the Wikivoyage community. I came across a talk page and I sincerely wanted to thank you guys for not shunning or discouraging the new editors, and most of all, for your patience. Happy and a prosperous new year @Ground Zero @SHB2000 @Ikan Kekek

Edriiic (talk) 22:05, 31 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Edriiic: we are very happy to get new content for a country which is not well covered by Wikivoyage, even if it does not follow our formatting norms. And there are several of us willing to do clean up to bring the content up to Wikivoyage standards. At the same time, we are just volunteers, too, so we haven try to control behaviour that will create a lot of work for us. Fortunately, most of your team are interested in learning how to contribute better. A happy and safe new year to you too. Ground Zero (talk) 22:54, 31 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'd like to echo what Ground Zero said. This expedition has been a great boon for this site, and for travellers, which is the main point. And I'd be very happy if some of the new editors stick around and continue to make updates after January! Have a happy and safe 2022! Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:12, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Some of us are continuing to work on integrating the contributions of the Nigerian team into Wikivoyage, which has many new articles now. But some articles are being proposed for deletion because they don't have any travel information about the places. See Wikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion#April_2022.

Rumuokoro, Toro, Onna, Okpella, Apumiri, Nkporo, Omoku, Iboko, Dass, Warji, Shira, Darazo, Giade, Zaki, Gamawa, Tafawa Balewa

The Degema article has been nominated because all of the information in it is about Port Harcourt. A dozen or more other articles have already geen deleted because they were made up of text and listings copied from other articles. Often, the hotels and restaurants were hundreds of kilometres away from the city.

These articles are not useful for travellers, and they take up time for other editors who are cleaning up after the expedition.

Future expeditions should focus on adding new content to articles, and not on creating new articles. Providing an incentive for creating new articles has resulted in some contributors creating a lot of very low quality articles as quickly as possible. This does not make Wikivoyage better.

I hope future expeditions will take this into consideration, and be designed to provide incentives that are more effective in improving the quality of contributions. Ground Zero (talk) 11:26, 8 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

I agree. Some expeditions are scored based on how many articles are added, and this causes some problems. Most travel worthy destinations in the country now have articles, so there is no need to write more, but instead expand the current articles. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 17:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

I agree too. The Grace789 situation was a typical case of "just create articles for the sake of it" and a typical example of w:Wikipedia:Gaming the system. I think future expeditions should have point systems for quality of articles created, and based on article status, not by byte count or articles created. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:23, 16 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

I'm having a concern with the latest iteration of this expedition. Articles are being created for the smallest villages and towns, and it seems to me that editors are missing the purpose of our travel guide. Most of our articles about major cities in Nigeria need significant work, but instead I'm seeing articles about cities lie untouched while villages with no travel relevance receive stubby articles. Is there a way we can direct contributors toward more useful targets for contributions to our guide? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 13:55, 20 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Anyone with knowledge of Fula would be greatly appreciated in this discussion, thanks! HKLionel TALK 17:11, 22 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

I have had a quick look at a list over 50 grant applications in meta:Grants:Regions/Sub-Saharan Africa. I only looked at the details of a small selection of the applications in the "Rapid Funds - Fiscal Year (FY) 2025-26 (SSA)" - "Under Review" in the box at he bottom of the page. I found two that planned to edit Wikivoyage:

• meta:Grants:Programs/Wikimedia Community Fund/Rapid Fund/Promoting Tourism and Travel Information in Northeast Nigeria through Wikimedia (ID: 23747298)
• meta:Grants:Programs/Wikimedia Community Fund/Rapid Fund/Open Heritage:Documenting Northern Nigerian Cultures, Festivals, and Emirates on Wikimedia (ID: 23741619)

You can comment on the applications on the linked grant discussion pages. Has the discussion of the new policy on Wikivoyage:Welcome, event organizers concluded? - it may be appropriate to mention this policy in grant application discussion. AlasdairW (talk) 22:27, 26 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Do we know which user is behind the two grants? Unfortunately the edit histories of both applications were done by a bot. //shb (t | c | m) 23:07, 26 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

See the answer to question: "8. Describe your team.", nearly halfway down the page. AlasdairW (talk) 23:15, 26 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

I see – pinging @Ishaku Ajeje, Mlamido, Gwanki, Mahuta, Mr. Snatch, A Sulaiman Z: – can you all confirm you are aware of this discussion?

While I'm at it, I'm going to be completely honest: I don't get good feelings about the first. Two of the organisers listed there, Special:CA/Hajara ya'u and Special:CA/Nnamadee, do not even have local accounts on enwikivoyage (i.e. they never even visited Wikivoyage whilst logged in). That alone should be a bit concerning, but I am happy to be proved otherwise (and I hope it ends up being that way). //shb (t | c | m) 03:20, 27 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000@Ikan Kekek Thank you very much for contacting us regarding the proposal.

Typically, we form a team with members from different specializations who work collaboratively on such projects. We assure you that we will fully comply with all Wikivoyage policies and guidelines throughout the process.

Thank you again for your consideration. Mr. Snatch (talk) 08:45, 27 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for posting, and please stay in touch with us so we can be available to help with planning in any way that could be useful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:06, 27 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek, AlasdairW, SHB2000 Thank you very much for reaching out to us about this proposal, [1], I am very pleased with your response. As you rightly noted, some individuals have not yet opened accounts on Wikivoyage. For this reason, we aim to intensify our efforts to encourage people from Northeast Nigeria to begin contributing actively to Wikivoyage. This will be achieved by helping them appreciate the value of their cultural heritage and traditions, and by reassuring them that their contributions will gain global recognition when shared not only on Wikivoyage but also on Wikipedia as a whole. We assure you of our full commitment to strictly following all relevant guidelines. [2] Ishaku Ajeje (talk) 09:31, 27 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Thanks very much! I'm posting to those talk pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:19, 26 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Hello AlasdairW, Thank you for for pointing out the inclusion of Wikivoyage in our project.

In our proposal Open Heritage: Documenting Northern Nigerian Cultures, Festivals, and Emirates, we included Wikivoyage because the organizers already have practical experience creating and improving Wikivoyage articles. The project is focused on documenting Northern Nigerian emirates, festivals, and cultural heritage, and some of these topics are directly relevant to travel and cultural tourism. Because of this, it makes sense to improve related travel information where appropriate.

We are aware of the ongoing discussion about the new policy for event organizers on Wikivoyage. We will review the guidance on Wikivoyage:Welcome, event organizers and make sure our project activities align with the expected standards for training and content contributions. Our team will ensure that our contributions follow Wikivoyage policies and best practices.

We are not connected to the other proposal mentioned. Our team will focus on implementing our own project activities, while ensuring that any contributions to Wikivoyage follow the Wikivoyage guidelines and scope. We also welcome any suggestions from the community that can help improve the quality of our contributions.

Thank you

Gwanki (talk) 06:00, 27 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Awesome, @Gwanki, glad to hear you're aware – hopefully all goes well for you with the grant. :) //shb (t | c | m) 06:35, 27 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, good luck with the grant application, and thanks for working with us! My feeling is that for Wikivoyage, the most important things in regard to festivals are what, when and where. From what I've seen, what is the most commonly covered of the three, but when and exactly where may be omitted, and visitors need that information for planning and to attend. What we don't want is either just a list of festival names without other information or lots of detail about the what with no practical information about when or where to go. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:26, 27 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

I am pleased to see that the grant applicants have engaged with us, and I hope that the applications are successful. AlasdairW (talk) 11:13, 27 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Unfortunately, these two grant applications were not funded. AlasdairW (talk) 23:22, 27 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

@AlasdairW Yes, we didn’t anticipate this outcome, but considering the high number of proposed projects, we fully understand the limitations involved. Mr. Snatch (talk) 08:32, 28 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you guys can reapply soon. Let us know if we might be able to help you in any way. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:44, 28 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek Thank you so much for your kind message. We truly appreciate your support and encouragement. We will definitely consider reapplying soon, and we’ll reach out if we need any assistance. Mr. Snatch (talk) 23:04, 14 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

There are two other grant applications that mention Wikivoyage, but these are proposing less edits, and may not have much impact:

• meta:Grants:Programs/Wikimedia Community Fund/Rapid Fund/Wikipédia & Génocide des Tutsis (ID: 23653583) This Rwanda based application proposes to edit 10 pages on Wikivoyage, but as the application is mainly written in French, they may not contribute here.
• meta:Grants:Programs/Wikimedia Community Fund/Rapid Fund/Advance Wikipedia Awareness and Training at Abdu Gusau Polytechnic and Historical Documentation of Gusau, Zamfara States. Follow up to our Previous Initiative. (ID: 23526700) is based in Nigeria and proposes to edit 30 pages on Wikivoyage, but the main activity is adding photos to Commons. As it is planned for 2026-01-01 - 2026-03-31, it is unlikely to get a grant in time.

As before there are comment links in the applications. AlasdairW (talk) 11:24, 27 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

There seems to be an influx of new Nigeria articles. Is this related to any known event, or another event in violation of the event organizer policy? //shb (t | c | m) 12:52, 17 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

It looks like 21 new articles were posted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:40, 17 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

@User:Bigcee007, @User:Viva33, @Ngozi scholar Okafor, @User:Celetex, @User:Senator Choko, @User:OGA Goody, @User:Adakaibe (and please read WV:Naming conventions#Disambiguation, which is not done in the same style on this site as on Wikipedia), @User:Akwugo, @User:Chikwas, @User:IfyClassique, @User:Bigkotech, @User:Nneka Ibeanu, @User:Ennydavids: Can you all tell us what is going on and link the organizing page for us? Who trained you in how to edit on Wikivoyage? Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:39, 17 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

...and @Goodymeraj: who posted a block appeal on behalf of someone else on my talk page. //shb (t | c | m) 05:42, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Good morning sir. I posted the appeal. We are currently on a project of visibilizing some Nigerian communities on Wikivoyage. The users you mentioned and tagged above are part of the exercise. Bigcee007 is one of them. That's why I'm appealing on his behalf. Thank you so much Goodymeraj (talk) 05:52, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Goodymeraj, please answer the questions we've asked you. Also, importantly, have you read Wikivoyage:Welcome, event organizers? If not, read it right away! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Please which other questions did you ask that I've not answered. And yes, I read the Wikivoyage:Welcome, event organizers Goodymeraj (talk) 05:58, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

And when did you inform us about this event prior to it happening and solicit our advice and collaboration? Read and answer the questions in this thread. I see no reason to repost them. They are in the first and third posts in this thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:53, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Goodymeraj:...so it was you behind this expedition? What do you mean you've read the event organizers policy, but then failed to do every single step listed on that page? //shb (t | c | m) 12:33, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

We have to decide what to do about this; by all appearances, it's exactly what the event organizers policy is supposed to prevent, and everyone involved is so far evading all our questions. Should we be asking right now whether all of the edits should be reverted and all the participants should be blocked, or is the more salient question whether the organizer should be banned? Our policy is either in force or it's a dead letter, so it's important for us to figure out the best course of action and take it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:31, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Can everyone please calm down a bit? I can see why Ikan asks the questions above, but I definitely do not think we should answer yes to either of them. Both the organiser & the participants appear to be acting in good faith, so heavy-handed measures should be avoided if possible.

A lot of our coverage of Africa is quite weak & we definitely want contributions from new users with local knowledge. Yes, the inevitable new user blunders are irritating, but nothing that cannot be dealt with. Pashley (talk) 16:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

It's the eternal paradox of the new editors: Newbies are 'expensive', but the community will die without them.

As we discussed months ago at Wikivoyage talk:Welcome, event organizers#A draft of a substitute for the text on this page I'm not convinced that banning organizers is the right choice, especially on a "first offense", when we can't know whether they read the page before the event.

I do think these articles need improving. Picking one at random, Igbo-Ukwu is a site of archaeological significance. The population is around 75,000, so it's the kind of place we probably ought to have an article on. It would be nice to have information added to this article (e.g., hotels, restaurants, several festivals), but I'm not sad that we have five sentences instead of zero. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:15, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

People acting in good faith would answer our questions. The silence in reply to them is deafening. We need answers ASAP. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:02, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: I'd personally ban the organizer for both failing to adhere to the event organizer policy, and also blatantly lying about having read the page. Maybe I'd give a 24–48-hour grace period (from the time of your message), because any longer and that just increases the workload for everyone else trying to clean their mess. //shb (t | c | m) 21:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

And also for playing dumb ("Please which other questions did you ask that I've not answered") and refusing to answer any of the questions at the top of the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:28, 18 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

You're assuming there actually was "an" organizer (possible, but not certain) and that the group didn't get together for fun and decide at the last minute to edit Wikivoyage instead of Wikipedia. If so, I'm sure they won't make that mistake again, after this WV:FUN reaction. Consider:

• "Have you read Wikivoyage:Welcome, event organizers? If not, read it right away!"

And then when the person did read it, you react like they should have traveled back in time to implement it retroactively:

• "What do you mean you've read the event organizers policy, but then failed to do every single step listed on that page?"

I think this is the most important question that's been asked so far:

• Can everyone please calm down a bit?

WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 20 April 2026 (UTC)Reply